Grilling JR - Vengeance 2001 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Welcome back to Grilling JR and today we’re going to finish up our 20 year look back as we discuss WWF Vengeance from 2001.

Jim, we've taken a long, deep look at your 2001 and what a year in wrestling it was. From ECW closing, to WCW being bought by the WWF, 9/11, we talked in detail about the year Chris Jericho had, and everything in between. And today we are going to “put a bow on it” with the  final pay-per-view of the year.

The December pay-per-view was historically called Armageddon but because of 9/11…the pay-per-view is renamed Vengeance. How big a decision is that in terms of getting the marketing redone for the show or is it not that big a deal at all?

We’re two weeks out from the historic episode that you and Conrad covered, where you joined Vince McMahon’s - Kiss My Ass club on Raw. With the reset…Austin babyface turn…Flair hiring…Taker heel turn…there wasn’t a lot going on in terms of building up the pay-per-view. And it almost feels like a  throwaway segment that the two titles are going to be merged at Vengeance and create one unified champion. Did you agree with that approach?

You covered some of this in the Chris Jericho episode in the archives but we all know Chris is going to win the title at the end of this show. Out of the 4 people in that picture, Jericho, Austin, Rock and Angle…was he the one you thought should be leaving that night with the belt?

Recently on the Kurt Angle Show - which by the way is a part of our family of shows over at Adfreeshows.com - Kurt shared this revelation and I would like to get your thoughts on it…take a listen…

PLAY CLIP

At the same time unification is being discussed …the brand split is also being talked about as still a go. This is all a Vince McMahon edict right? Split two brands and build them up as themselves?

On November 27th, The day after you Kiss Vince’s ass is a Smackdown taping in Wichita which features Brock Lesnar defeating Randy Orton and Ron Waterman defeating Rico in the dark matches. No one talks about Ron Waterman all too much. What was his deal and why didn’t he ever make it to the big time?

On SmackDown Vince attempts to make Trish Stratus join his club but the Rock saves her and hits Vince with a Rock Bottom.

Austin’s babyface turn continues when he defeats William Regal in a Strap Match and then Edge comes to his rescue when Angle & Regal attack him after the match. At this point, was Edge ready for a shot at being a top babyface?

Around this time there’s a Yokozuna Memorial Show that takes place in Allentown, PA after his death which features such WWF talent as Rikishi, the Undertaker, Kane, the Acolytes among others. Who dealt with guys doing these small shows in talent relations? Was this something you would sign off on?

You’re already running split squad house shows where one group is on one loop and another is elsewhere. This isn’t anything out of the ordinary that the WWF hasn’t done before when business has been hot. Is this the trial run in your mind for what’s to come with the brand split?

On December 3rd, At the next Raw in Milwaukee Steve Austin defeats Chris Jericho in a non-title match, and the Rock teamed with Trish Stratus to defeat Kurt Angle & Vince McMahon and due to the pre-match stipulation now Vince would have to kiss Rock’s ass on Smackdown or Angle would be removed from the Vengeance tournament. Lots of ass kissing in this era Jim huh?

Meltzer would discuss how this Raw was used to really promote SmackDown instead of the pay-per-view. There isn’t a lot of build to this pay-per-view which is crazy to think about because it’ll be the unification of the two biggest titles in professional wrestling history at that point. Was the edict to not mention how big these titles are and what it all means?

In a “normal” scenario isn’t this a WrestleMania main event? And you’re talking about doing a brand split. Why the rush to merge the titles when, in theory, you’re going to need two champions?

The Hardys break up on SmackDown to give them 2 days to build to the first Matt vs. Jeff matchup at Vengeance. That certainly is some last minute creative JR?

20 years ago today Jim, Vengeance took place at the San Diego Sports Arena in front of 11,800 fans paying $550,580 plus another $100,696 in merchandise which Meltzer points out are all records in San Diego at that time.

The show is somewhat well received by the Wrestling Observer readers. 47% thumbs up, 15.5% thumbs down and 37.5% thumbs in the middle.

The show opens with Vince coming out and cutting a promo before being interrupted by Flair to introduce the first match…

1. Albert & Scotty 2 Hotty beat Test & Christian in 6:20 when Albert pinned Christian after the baldo bomb. Came across like another Heat match. Biggest thing was pushing Albert dancing as the "Hip Hop Hippo." Scotty did the worm on Test, who rolled out of the ring. Christian hit a reverse DDT on Scotty, but Albert used his finisher on Christian for the pin. *¼

The Hip Hop Hippo Jim. The future NXT trainers (and well I guess just one actually remains) defeats Test & Christian. Was there really a ceiling in your mind for Albert & Scotty in this role?

Next up we would see Edge vs. William Regal for the Intercontinental title. From the Observer:

“2. Edge retained the IC title pinning William Regal in 9:08. At one point plans were for Regal to win the title. The idea is that Edge is ready to get a major push, so the thought process was whether it was better for Edge to have him chase new champ Regal in a program, or get a PPV win and the latter view won out. Edge missed a shoulder-block off the apron and crashed into the ring steps. Regal took some Brass Knux hidden in a corner. Regal got a pin but Edge's foot was on the ropes and it kept going. Regal did two double-arm power bombs for a near fall. Regal set up a 70s Knux spot, as he pulled them out, but Edge speared him before he could take the shot, and got the pin. **¼”

This does seem like the beginning of the Edge push from last week on Raw saving Austin to this win here. It really started to take shape in 2002 but could you see the top guy level push for Edge here being successful?

“3. Jeff Hardy pinned Matt Hardy in 12:32 with Lita as ref. Very disappointing crowd reactions. People really didn't take Matt as a heel yet. Match also was one of those bouts where you expected too much, but it was a big letdown. Not a lot of heat. Biggest spot was Matt doing the power bomb sunset flip spot off the apron onto the floor, but Jeff rolling through with a huracanrana. It appeared Jeff hit his head on the floor on the way over. Mostly Jeff selling the left knee with Matt playing subtle heel. Lita caught Matt using the ropes. Later, Jeff blocked a twist of fate off the middle rope and hit the swanton. Matt got his leg draped over the ropes, but Lita didn't see it, and counted the pin. Later in the show, Lita tried to apologize for her screw up but Matt walked out on her. Very unique booking in that Matt is actually "right" in being mad at the other two because they were making mistakes, but he's still the heel. *¾”

Why does this seem to never work? Is it just something about wanting to see them together more than separate when it came to the Hardys back then?

4. Dudleys retained WWF tag titles over Big Show & Kane in 6:49. Same match they did at the house shows, almost spot for spot, except Kane through in a plancha, until the finish. Show looked terrible, doing those stationary clotheslines the guys had to run into. Dudleys couldn't save this. Finish saw Bubba undo the padding on the top turnbuckle and they picked Show up in a flapjack like move and he hit his head on the steel and was pinned. 1/4*

Do you think the Big Show is just going through the motions at this point?

5. Undertaker won the hardcore title from Rob Van Dam in 11:04. Undertaker got all cheers coming out, partially due to the bike and the music. Van Dam got louder cheers when he came out and Undertaker tried to work as a demented heel. At one point Undertaker choked Van Dam with a Mexican flag as they were brawling in the stands. Much of the match was on the stage and a little backstage including Van Dam spraying him with a fire extinguisher and doing a plancha off the balcony, which looked to be about eight-and-a-half feet high. Teased a last ride on the stage, but Van Dam grabbed part of the set up and pulled himself out. After a missed Van Daminator, Undertaker choke slammed Van Dam off the stage onto two tables (lots of padding clearly underneath) and pinned him on the tables. Good match, but not nearly the calibre of Van Dam's previous WWF PPV bouts. ***

Does Taker really need the hardcore title to get himself over as a heel? Was there more with RVD that could’ve been done with a big win over a freshly turned Taker?

6. Trish Stratus retained the womens title over Jackie in 3:26. They tried. Trish even did the old Japanese rolling crotch leg cradle move. Stratus won with a backslide. 1/4*

I mean...yeah this is just to get the women on the card is it not?

7. Steve Austin retained the WWF title for the last time pinning Kurt Angle in 15:01. It was Angle's 32nd birthday. Austin posted Angle's left arm a few times. Angle went to the ankle lock several times to work the leg, and also did a figure four around the ringpost. Angle did three back suplexes for a near fall, then missed a moonsault. Austin came back with five back suplexes for a near fall. Angle used an Angle slam, but Austin kicked out. Austin came back with a stunner. ***½

This is going to be a big stretch of matches here with these 4. Austin winning here is a big moment but this is a match we’ve seen at this point 4 or 5 times in major spots between pay-per-view and title changes on Raw. Was it too much?

8. Chris Jericho won what was once the WCW title pinning Rock in 19:05. Earlier in the show they had both Jericho and Angle confront Flair, noting that Flair had never been undisputed world champion. They pushed Flair as a 16-time champion and that's a very conservative estimate. Jericho used a lionsault for a near fall. Jericho went head first into the post. Later Rock blocked Jericho's attempt at a rock bottom and DDT'd him through the English table. Jericho blocked the rock bottom and hit his breakdown for a near fall. Rock went for the people's elbow but it was reversed by Jericho into a sharpshooter which was a spot that really picked the crowd up. Rope break. Rock did a rock bottom but couldn't follow up. Vince came out and distracted the ref missing the pinfall. Rock punched Vince and hit a spinebuster on Jericho. He set up the people's elbow again, but before delivering it, threw Vince in the ring. He hit the elbow, but again no ref. In the confusion, Jericho hit a low blow and pinned Rock with his own rock bottom finisher. ****

Jericho and Rock continue to just have great matches. These two have chemistry together that really is tough to beat. How bad did Jericho need the win and do you think Vince being aligned with Jericho helped or hurt him?

9. Jericho won the WWF title from Austin to combine both belts in 12:33. Angle immediately hit Austin with a chair shot and Rock gave Jericho a rock bottom just before the bell rang to start the match. Austin threw Jericho into the post and undid the mats. Jericho tried for the walls on the Spanish announcers table but Austin powered out and Jericho took a bump off the table. Austin had undone the mats and suplexed Jericho on the floor. Jericho in the ring used a Fujiwara armbar with the ropes for leverage. Jericho got the walls but Austin made the ropes. Ref bump by Hebner. Jericho did a low blow and a mistimed stunner as Austin went down late. Vince came out with Nick Patrick, but before he could make a count, Flair came out and decked Patrick. Vince punched Flair and posted him, taking him out. Austin used a low blow and a boston crab. Jericho was tapping like crazy, but no ref. Booker T ran out of the crowd and hit Austin with one of the belts while Vince threw Hebner in the ring to make the count. Finish live was flat. ***1/4

Having Booker help Jericho and Vince help Jericho makes him seem weak but as a heel that’s ok right?

Steve did his best to make sure Chris looked his best but two matches back to back in a 30 minute time span has to be tough does it not?

Was the belt put on Jericho knowing Hunter was due to return and he was going to be a gigantic babyface and you needed to sacrifice someone to him so why not Chris?

What did you think of the show Jim?