Grilling JR - Survivor Series 2001 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Our look back at 20 years ago continues Jim as today we’re going to discuss Survivor Series 2001.

We’ve taken the chronicle of 20 years, between No Mercy 2001 and just last week Chris Jericho’s 2001 and now we’re at what is a very historical show...the end of the Invasion!

Coming out of No Mercy we have a new WCW champion in Chris Jericho and he’s quickly being elevated to a top heel. Steve Austin retained his WWF Title by defeating Kurt Angle & RVD in a 3-way, and the Undertaker defeated Booker T.

The next night at Raw in Kansas City is a star studded card...for the dark matches. Chuck Palumbo defeats Randy Orton and Billy Gunn defeats Brock Lesnar. Do you remember these matches?

At this point are they ready for prime time but with a stacked roster at the time was there just no room?

On Raw that night Tajiri defeated Billy Kidman to win the WCW Cruiserweight Title, Kurt Angle defeated Rhyno to win the WCW United States title, Bradshaw defeated the Hurricane to win the European Title, and Chris Jericho & the Rock...who just the night before had fought for the WCW Title...defeated the Dudley Boyz to win the WWF Tag Team Titles. So literally the only wrestler from the Invasion still holding a title is Rob Van Dam as Hardcore Champion. Was that just an indication of the creative not being successful in getting any of the WCW/ECW talent over or was it their own limitations?

That night at Raw...and yes this really happened...just as Vince & Linda McMahon teased making out inside the ring...a challenge was made and accepted.

The WWF vs. The Alliance in the main event of the Survivor Series and the losing team would have to disband. Jim...the WWF purchased WCW in March. Here we are with the expected end of it going to be in November. 8 months. EIGHT MONTHS. Seriously...what the hell happened here?

Dave Meltzer in the Observer wrote this at the time: “The WWF needs major changes, and I'm not confident anybody really knows what the changes need to be because the problems aren't as simple as those that killed WCW, or that those changes will be coming. Maintaining and gaining back the over-30 crowd goes against every way of thinking in that company and I don't think anyone really knows what has lost the audience. I don't buy it's less emphasis on the matches, although for long-term survival that is part of the package that needs to change. Most of the shows themselves have contained good wrestling, at least by WWF standards, so while people complain about matches, and there are problems like overdone ref bumps and a fear that without a gimmick finish people will think it's a flat finish, but that ultimately kills people taking wins and losses seriously which leads to far reaching problems. The writing, particularly long-term writing, is pretty bad, and writers being the focal characters causes more problems. I think the long-term soap opera storylines, mainly the ones involving the top characters, far more than in-ring product, are what builds numbers. Perhaps the biggest frustration is that everyone knows the multi-million dollar angle that will turn the thing around, but it requires getting Eric Bischoff, Bill Goldberg, etc. and requires the McMahon's to be vulnerable, and requires the long-term wrestlers to accept the idea that because business is bad, some guys need to be jump-started ahead of existing and in most cases better talent. Ultimately, this business needs a separate approach to what wrestling is, bring some of the developmental guys up with a major push and not the "wait your turn" attitude and a separate writing staff (that in some form interfaces with the existing staff so they don't do angles that appear identical) as well as new announcers that are more aggressive. This may be the place to try it out, even with the knowledge the odds are against it. It's not happening now and it feels like we're in a holding pattern, waiting for of all people, Kevin Nash, to save the day, and that's not a position I'd like to gamble the industry on.”

This seems to be a pretty spot on synopsis of the issues the WWF was encountering at the time and the future that would hold. Just to make a note, the Raw we just referenced...coming off a strong pay-per-view in No Mercy, with a decent card, fell to its lowest rating in its normal time slot for a non-holiday show since March 30, 1998. That’s before Raw ended the 83 week streak of Nitro’s. That’s against Nitro’s. That’s against Monday Night Football as well. You always talk about cash and creative as the issues for talent. For a promotion...is it all based around creative?

Also from Meltzer on that Raw: “RVD pinned Show after a Van daminator and frog splash in 4:45. Originally this match was RVD vs. Undertaker. Plan A was for RVD to win, to kind of give him steam coming off the PPV loss. Plan B, not because Taker refused to do the job, but because several agents felt it would send a bad message for RVD to beat Taker to the dressing room (please), so they set up a finish where Austin would interfere and cost RVD the match. With Austin out, they couldn't come to any kind of an agreement on what to do since they didn't want either to lose, so they scrapped the whole match and put Show in to do the job and gave Undertaker his win in the tag match.”

This sounds a whole lot like WCW doesn’t it Jim? Is this how you remembered that all going down?

What was the WWF missing at this point?

How did we go from WCW invading the WWF - to the biggest non-WrestleMania pay-pre-view buy rate in the history of the company at Invasion - to blowing it all off at Survivor Series?

Were you for or against it?

How much was the talent acquired by you right after the sale of WCW & ECW concerned about their spots? Who did you have to talk off the ledge?

At SmackDown the next night in Omaha The Dudleyz defeated the Hardyz to win the WCW World Tag team Titles and Rob Van Dam pinned the Rock with help from Test & Booker T. That’s right...RVD pinned the Rock. Is it crazy to think that the one guy who was getting wins on the regular and pushed like a top guy ended up getting over?

The next week at Raw Brock Lesnar & Shelton Benjamin defeated the OVW Tag Team Champions the Prototype … which will become John Cena and Rico Constantino. What was it about Rico that just never got there? His age?

From the Observer: “Jim Ross met with Jim Cornette, Les Thatcher and Danny Davis for four hours on 10/29 in Louisville before Raw about the developmental talent. Everybody was high on Rico Constantino being ready, although there was a little concern over his comedic style in the ring. There was a strong feeling not to rush Lesnar out there, because he isn't ready. The Goldberg push was talked about, but the feeling was, after that, his weaknesses due to lack of full understanding of the business (he was never a fan growing up so he really only has one year even studying and watching) would work against him. Lesnar's developmental contract is significantly higher than most, because there was serious interest from both WCW and New Japan at the time he made it clear he wasn't going any farther in amateur after winning the NCAA title and was looking to go pro. Because of that, there is that innate pressure to get him to the big show faster to justify the deal”

What do you remember of this meeting? Was Cornette, Thatcher and Davis on the same page?

RVD coming off the big win over the Rock...is pinned by Edge. Kurt Angle defeats William Regal with an ankle lock and then in the main event...Kurt Angle turns on the WWF to help Shane McMahon pin Vince McMahon. So Angle...pushed to be the top babyface...Olympic Gold Medalist and Hero coming off of 9/11...turns heel.

WWF/WWE Kurt Angle Heel Turn 2001.

Jim the creative is all over the place here. How frustrating is it to try and explain things as an announcer when this is all going on?

Helen Hart passes away on November 4th and is never honored on WWF TV. What did you think of that decision and what did you think of Helen?

From the Observer: “As business continues to fall, the WWF locker room and front office, one year ago considered almost a perfect business model, is starting to show more than just signs of frustration.

The wrestlers have started feeling the pinch for the past few months. Paid based on house show business and PPV business, those figures have decreased significantly since Wrestlemania with the exception of the monster Invasion PPV. A lot of the WWF side also had bookings cut back, which again cuts into pay for the mid and lower card wrestlers, because so many newcomers were brought in over the summer. This led to resentment of newcomers at the beginning and was a key factor in botching the potentially biggest angle in history, which lead to the fan frustration with the product that exists. This led first to smaller grosses on shows with more performers on them, meaning significantly lower pay per show for most regulars, combined with many regulars not being booked on as many house shows and big shows. Ultimately, this pointed out the WWF wasn't filled with nearly the team players that was portrayed, but instead, it turned out to be a clique protecting its turf from letting any of the newcomers surpass the existing top stars, at the expense of the angle and, ultimately, overall business. A true team locker room, which admittedly is impossible in a system based on being paid based on your position on a card (which means top guys will do anything to keep their positions because their income depends on it, although the guaranteed money system has its flaws in such a hot-and-cold business), would have strongly put over the newcomers and hidden their obvious faults instead of attempted to exploit them to make sure they didn't succeed.”

You’re probably dealing with this the most at the time as head of talent relations. Are you letting Vince know what’s going on on the regular?

Are any of the top guys complaining or is just the lower to mid card talent?

There’s...just no way the Alliance is going to beat the WWF even with the WWF going through the World Wildlife Fund lawsuit correct? I mean in May of 02...7 months later … the WWF is renamed to the WWE. Hindsight...would it had been worth taking the WCW name?

From the Observer: “much of the news internally is more chaotic, with plans being made on the fly and the foundation of the product being destroyed with mistakes that shouldn't be made because of the lessons that should have been learned from WCW about turning main characters until nobody cares, changing title belts to where they become totally meaningless, and numbing stipulation matches that aren't adhered to, thus rendering them meaningless. And when everything is meaningless to the public that wants meaning out of the problem, business plummets. And at least for the short-term, it doesn't appear these problems are going to be addressed.

The upcoming Survivor Series is the epitome of all of these problems. Either WWF or the Alliance goes and numerous people are to be out of a job come 11/18 according to the storyline. Nobody believes the storyline, nor should they, as nobody really believes either Rock or Austin or JR or Angle will be on the unemployment line. Proof of that is ticket sales for Greensboro at press time were only 6,528, meaning half the Coliseum is unsold. This comes on the heels of the live Raw at the Nassau Coliseum drawing 7,629 fans. Up until this summer, WWF had sold out every event in the New York metro area dating back to 1998. Now, after Rock vs. Austin couldn't come close to selling out MSG, they didn't come close to selling out a live Raw either.”

Is this a fair assessment in your mind from Meltzer? I mean the ticket sales being this slow for not even a B pay-per-view with a big stipulation...this is one of the big 5 at the time with the company literally on the line. So many people point to this star from WCW not being there and that star...would that in your opinion have saved this...orwas it all for naught the instant Buff and Booker got out of the ring in Tacoma?

The show is built around Vince teasing someone from the Alliance is jumping to the WWF and it’s all mental warfare as he says it’s going to be Austin to create distrust. This isn’t a hard concept though Jim. Shouldn’t the right to keep their job be enough?

The next night SmackDown is taped and Tazz is stunned by Austin and you take over on commentary. Was there something about Tazz’s commentary that annoyed Vince and kept getting him taken off the air?

The main event features Steve Austin & Kurt Angle vs. the Undertaker. From the Observer: “Austin volunteered to put Undertaker over on Smackdown in exchange for being able to stun Angle and re-introducing the beer spot as a step into his babyface turn. At this point Austin, with backing from Jim Ross, is trying to turn face, which others, as mentioned last week, are still against. It appears Austin's idea apparently is to be a lone wolf ala Sting in 1997. Austin saw the writing on the wall when his merchandise went down so badly. The Austin promo on that Smackdown was edited down several minutes, mainly the crowd chanting for RVD and Austin goading them by yelling "What?" Well, the promo was too long on television even in its edited form”

Walk me through this Jim. Was this when Austin realized the mistake?

From your Ross Report with commentary by Meltzer: “Ross said with all the injuries, this is the time for people to get noticed. Only problem is, you have to be booked to be a star nine times out of ten before the fans treat you as one, and nobody is being elevated to superstar level in booking. It's always two steps forward and two steps back booking”

Was the booking a hindrance for the talent?

From the Observer: “Flair is talking with WWF. It comes down to the same thing it always has, which is if they'll pay him what he can make staying home. With Flair's book due for a release next fall, that would give Flair the incentive to get back on television somewhere at that point to push the book”

Was Flair’s book the reason why he was pushing to come back? What were the negotiations like with Ric and did you or Vince handle them?

On November 8th the WWF laid off 39 employees...and President Stu Snyder is also let go. How does this come to be? What can you tell us about Snyder? Was your department or job personally effected by this?

It’s speculated in the Observer that Snyder had a lot to do with the purchase of WCW due to his past position at Time Warner. Is the failure of all this laid at his feet?

There are no talent cuts but this is interesting from the Observer: “There are the tough decisions that have to be made, ultimately the key people involved would be Vince McMahon, Jim Ross and the writing team with input on the developmental guys by their coaches. McMahon and Ross do favor big guys and Ross favors strong athletic backgrounds and there is a logical reason to that in that most athletes are used to training hard and playing in pain without a lot of complaining.”

How much of a microscope is everything at this point? From main roster spots, developmental, fitting it all in...is this one of the most stressful times in your position?

On Raw on the 12th Mick Foley cuts what is essentially a farewell promo. “Fans were happy to see him, but he didn't seem happy and it came across. He basically said he wouldn't be around much longer. Storyline was that if Alliance won, he's out of a job, but if WWF won, he'd also be out of a job because he didn't want to work for Vince. That took the crowd down. He also mentioned that the previous week when TV was in Nassau and Meadowlands that he was there both nights, but they had nothing for him, and seemed upset, in particular, that on Long Island, where he grew up, that they couldn't find a reason to get him on Raw, which was a true story.”

It’s obvious that Mick was ready to be done and not using him in his hometown had to be the tipping point, yes? Mick has always stood up for what he’s believed in in the business and wasn’t afraid of being vocal. Walk us through all of this with Mick.

The show ends with Austin & Rock doing the Margaritaville 20 minute classic promo but...does this really help sell the show?

The next day Paul Heyman cuts his infamous promo on Vince McMahon in Albany that many call the first “pipe bomb” promo. “Heyman told Vince he hated him, just like his kids do, and said Vince is used to having Patterson and Brisco kiss his ass all day. He said Vince used Hogan's blood to build Titan Towers, he destroyed Bret Hart to buy himself a private jet, and ruined Shawn Michaels' smile and made billions. He talked about how Vince's father went around the country telling all the promoters he wouldn't compete with them but when he died, Vince drove everyone out of business (technically, Vince started his expansion months before his father died, and his father told most promoters Vince wasn't expanding, but told his friend Wally Karbo long before he did that his son was going national), stealing their ideas and making money from them. He then said Vince got most of his ideas from him, stealing his dreams and his legacy and his ideas. He said when Vince was using Doink, Austin was drinking beer in ECW. He talked about how Vince flaunted his affairs in Playboy and how his kids hate him for it. Said Tazz was a wrestler but Vince thinks wrestling is a dirty word and turned Tazz into a no-good color commentator. Tazz then came in and choked Heyman out to a huge babyface pop. This was the excuse spot to again get rid of Tazz as announcer and Ross came out. Vince then yelled at Heyman saying the Alliance will choke on Sunday.”

My goodness Jim. How did Vince let this one fly?

Paul Heyman Pipebombs Vince McMahon| Emotional Segment| Talks About ECW🤭

THIS IS 9 MINUTES LONG

Eddy Guerrero is arrested for a DUI around this time and ends up released two days later. How are you told about this and were you worried about him? Who made the decision to release him and are you the one who called Eddy?

You go to Las Vegas to be part of the Tough Enough tryouts. What can you tell us about them?

Well Jim it took us a while but we’re finally here. The show itself from Greensboro, NC. It is the 15th presentation of the Survivor Series and it draws 10,142 fans which is about 50% capacity of that place for a gate of $594,720 and another $91,409 in merch. In comparison to Survivor Series of 2000 from Tampa - That show drew 14,753 paid for $778,990 and another $114,352 in merch with Austin vs. HHH on top. Amazing how quick it all fell apart Jim.

1. Christian retained the European title pinning Al Snow in 6:30. This match was made on a challenge during the Heat show. Very good for what it was and the live crowd, which was hot all night, were into it which in many cities even with the good work that wouldn't happen. Christian hit the unprettier after several near falls for the pin. **¾

Kind of a throw away match but still good action. Did you ever see Snow being a top guy? It’s really stunning when you look at the show the level of talent underneath the top 10-man tag…

2. William Regal beat Yoshihiro Tajiri in 2:59. Good while it lasted but again too short. Regal got something like his third bloody nose of the week. Tajiri did a few hard kicks before Regal ended it with a double arm suplex into a power bomb. After the match, Regal gave Tajiri a second double arm into a power bomb, and then when Torrie Wilson came out, he gave her one as well. *1/2

This seems like Regal is being set up for a top heel spot but the next night on Raw he kisses Vince’s ass to keep his job.

3. Edge pinned Test to win the IC title and retain the U.S. title in 11:17, thus ending the history of the WCW U.S. title which was dropped. Ironic end for both WCW, which was spawned by Jim Crockett Promotions whose best city was Greensboro, and the U.S. title, which was created in 1975 for Johnny Valentine when George Scott wanted to change the territory to a serious singles territory (it had always been a tag team territory) and was really put on the map when Valentine beat Harley Race for the title in the same building. Very good match, particularly all the near falls over the last few minutes, ending with Edge scoring the pin with a front rolling cradle. ***½

The irony is not lost on Meltzer and I’m sure not on you either for the end of this title. Edge and Test had a long history of being Canadian brothers. A lot of Test’s best work was in the ring with Edge. Was it Edge?

4. Dudleys retained the WCW tag titles and won the WWF tag titles from Matt & Jeff Hardy in a cage match in 15:45. Some cool spots early including Matt doing a russian leg sweep on D-Von off the top rope while the cage balanced them, and then Bubba doing a Bubba bump off the top rope with Jeff. Real cool spot with Dudleys doing the usual hot shot like move with Jeff into the cage but Jeff grabbed the top of the cage and started climbing. Matt was injured legit when both Dudleys knocked him into the cage nearly knocking out his two front teeth and badly splitting his gums. Ref Nick Patrick was holding the key, and Stacy basically shook her butt at Nick, who was paralyzed by the sight and she got the keys and opened the door to put the table in. Hardys blocked a 3-D through the table. Matt and Bubba climbed to the top and Matt escaped, leaving Jeff in by himself. Jeff got pounded on but made a comeback and climbed to the top with Bubba laid out on a table. Instead of climbing over, Jeff did a swanton off the top of the cage. Bubba moved and they did the table explosion spot and he was pinned. Jeff wasn't seriously hurt, although from a logic standpoint, Jeff came across like a real idiot having the match won but instead blowing it by jumping off the cage. Jeff did a stretcher job with the idea of selling it by keeping him off TV. ***¼

The finish doesn’t make any sense whatsoever but it is still a hell of a match and these 4 together rarely had a bad match. Matt’s injury notwithstanding a great effort and a great match to unify the tag team titles.

Just to put some things in perspective. On this date in 1998...some would say the height of both companies...the tag team champions for the WWF were the New Age Outlaws and for WCW were...Rick Steiner & Kenny Kaos. Yup.

5. Test won the Battle Royal in 7:40. Basically a rush job. Not awful, but no better than a usual Battle Royal. Shawn Stasiak was actually dumped before the bell rang to start the match, not like anyone is complaining. Tazz came in late and got a big pop. Hugh Morrus and Chavo Guerrero Jr. also came in late. Came down to Test and Billy Gunn of all people with Test kicking Gunn over the top to win. *

So this match determines who has immunity in case their company loses the main event. Test wins which isn’t a surprise really. Why did Test never get the super monster push that had been teased for years?

6. Trish Stratus won the womens title in a six-way over Jackie, Jazz, Lita, Mighty Molly and Ivory in 4:35. Really not that bad until the finish. The only real point of interest was whether or not Jim Ross or Paul Heyman would mention the name of the last womens' champ, Chyna. They didn't. Heyman put over Jazz huge in commentary and she looked good for the first few moves. Match was fine until it came time for Stratus to sell. With the rest brawling outside, Stratus surprisingly pinned Ivory after a bulldog. *

Obviously this is the return of the Women’s Title after Chyna leaves the company and you finally have enough talent to get it started again. Were you told not to mention Chyna or was that common sense? Was Trish the right person to begin rebuilding the division around at this time?

Now it’s time for the main event Jim!

7. Team WWF (The Rock & The Undertaker & Kane & Chris Jericho & Big Show) beat Team Alliance (RVD & Booker T & Shane McMahon & Steve Austin & Kurt Angle) in a losing promotion has to fold elimination match in 44:56. Before the match, Vince gave his guys a pep talk and talked about the legacy of the WWF and people like Buddy Rogers, Dr. Jerry Graham (two of Vince's childhood favorites), Andre the Giant, Gorilla Monsoon (most modern of the names mentioned and it got a big pop) and Peter Maivia (mentioned because he's Rock's grandfather). Good action from start-to-finish. Story of the first fall is Alliance members were constantly ready to be pinned but Shane kept breaking up the near falls. Undertaker, as would be the theme of the evening for him since he was doing a clean job somewhat early, didn't do hardly any selling. Finish saw Show come in very aggressive after a hot tag, but was taken down and Angle gave him the Angle slam, Booker gave him the ax kick, Van Dam gave him the frog splash before Shane pinned him in 12:42 with an elbow off the top rope. Second fall was everyone killed Shane. Kane used a choke slam, Undertaker used a tombstone piledriver and Jericho pinned him after a lionsault in 14:30. There was that secret heat afterwards on Shane because not only of how lame his firing on Raw was, but because he took everyone's finish the night before including a tombstone, a move that is basically unofficially banned for regular use, was helped out but then didn't sell anything the next night. After Angle came back from stretcher jobs and didn't sell on the next TV in the ring, it's not just a boss' son problem. Third fall saw Van Dam pin Kane after basically a one legged thrust kick off the top in 18:21. Undertaker then destroyed all four remaining alliance members all by himself for several minutes. As Undertaker was bouncing everyone around, Austin gave him a stunner and Angle pinned him in 20:03. This left four alliance members (Van Dam, Austin, Angle and RVD) against just Rock and Jericho. Rock pinned Booker in 22:33 with a roll-up after T bumped into Angle. Next fall was the Jericho-Van Dam program. Van Dam got a bunch of near falls before Jericho pinned him clean with the break down. A month ago, Jericho looked buried deep once again while Van Dam was the rising superstar. Now Van Dam is buried deep and Jericho is being pushed as the next guy in the top rung, until they give up on him like they always seem to do. This left Rock & Jericho vs. Austin & Angle and it got very sloppy during this fall. Rock got the fall on Angle with the sharpshooter in 31:52. Austin was bleeding from the mouth at this point, apparently from a slap to the mouth by Jericho. A couple of near falls before Austin pinned Jericho with a sloppy cradle in 34:30. This left Rock vs. Austin for the survival. Crowd was so hot. Jericho, mad about losing, immediately hit Rock with the breakdown, but Rock kicked out. Undertaker came out and yelled at Jericho. Brawled around the table. Austin used the sharpshooter. Rock used the stunner and had the match won when ref Patrick pulled ref Earl Hebner out of the ring. Austin then used the rock bottom but Rock kicked out. Austin decked Patrick and tried to get Earl Hebner in. Hebner was bumped. Austin hit Rock with a stunner but no ref. Angle showed up and hit Austin with a title belt, saving the day for WWF and Rock scored the pin with a rock bottom and eight months after WCW died and ten months after ECW died, their names within WWF were officially taken off life support and allowed to die with no dignity after a branding manslaughter. ****1/2

My goodness Jim. What an epic match with all the twists and turns. Can you comment on the heat on Shane?

It’s amazing that in the final battle between the WWF and WCW it’s the Rock vs. Austin. Angle turns again back to being a babyface...kind of...for one day...and we all know where this is going.

What’s the feeling like after the Alliance is put out of its misery?

The next night on Raw, Paul Heyman is fired, Jerry Lawler returns and Ric Flair makes his return to the WWF. Just a memorable stretch of things for both the good and the bad.

Why not Flair in the Survivor Series main event finish … considering it’s Greensboro... or did it make more sense for you in your mind to save him for Raw.

We’ll cover the Jerry Lawler return, Paul Heyman’s firing, the reset of creative, Flair’s actual return after 9 years, Vince McMahon becomes a heel again and so much more when we do a Watch Along next week of the November 26th, 2001 episode of Raw is War where JR...you kiss Vince McMahon’s ass right in the middle of the ring in Oklahoma City, OK! A career highlight I’m sure Jim!