Grilling JR - Unforgiven 2001 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Today Jim we’re talking on the 20 year anniversary of Unforgiven 2001. We covered a couple weeks ago the 9/11 Smackdown which is a show that’s on the way to Unforgiven so be sure to check that out.

In the follow-up from that show you really have 1 week to build towards a pay-per-view. Not an ideal situation creatively. How hard is it to re-focus and continue to push not knowing the future of a lot of things at this point?

Was talent having to deal with a lot of travel issues, changes or delays after 9/11 that were impacting business?

Did anybody come to you regarding a worry about air travel?

There’s a lot going on with talent especially with one of your longtime friends Jerry “the King” Lawler. From the Observer: “Lawler wrote an internet post saying that he had recently talked with both Bruce Prichard, as an attempt to mend fences, and Jim Ross, who he'd always gotten along with, to try and set the stage for a return. Ross' advice to him was to get the divorce completely behind him first so he'd be mentally 100%, and at that point, try and work things out with Vince”

Lawler comes back in November. Is this around the time the plan starts to come together for his return?

There’s an incident on a plane… I know you’re probably tired of discussing planes at this point in time … regarding Billy Silverman. Also from the Observer: “Billy Silverman, who was working as a WCW ref, quit, I believe on 9/2 after a flight from Halifax to Toronto. Silverman had been ribbed unmercifully since he upgraded himself to first class on a flight (it's considered a sign of arrogance to do so because first class is only for people who have made it to the top in WWF although in WCW, they had no such unwritten rule of conduct and anyone could upgrade themselves and you know how it goes, Silverman didn't read that invisible manual they give you when taking the WWF job). He was told if he bought beers for everyone on the flight, everyone would let it go, but somehow, he didn't buy enough beers and was still getting ribbed and when he landed, he quit”

This is just a sad thing that happens in these types of environment correct? Was anyone punished regarding this? Did you get a chance to speak to Silverman regarding this?

Ok so back on track with the show Unforgiven itself. The show is scheduled for Pittsburgh and obviously is Kurt Angle’s hometown. We recently covered this show from Kurt Angle’s point of view over on The Angle Pod so be sure to check that out for his thoughts. The card is shaping up as Austin vs. Angle for the WWF Title, Rock vs. Booker & Shane McMahon for the WCW Title, RVD vs. Jericho for the Hardcore title, Undertaker & Kane vs. Kronik for the WCW Tag Titles, Edge vs. Christian for the IC title as the top matches. That’s a stacked talent roster is it not JR?

Let’s talk about Kronik. How do they come into the company and does it have to do with Undertaker’s relationship with Bryan Clark & Brain Adams? What did you think of putting Steven Richards with them?

Supposedly when both left the WWF their each time there was bad blood. Did that get solved and do you remember what the issues were?

We’re still in the middle of the Invasion angle and the Alliance between WCW & ECW. Are there still talks regarding running separate WCW/ECW shows or not?

On the Raw after the live Smackdown from Houston it’s a mixed bag of things. The Dudleys defeat Undertaker & Kane with help from Kronik to win the WWF tag team titles. Terri & Raven put Moppy into a wood chipper in what is...a high point for creative I’m sure. Hurricane is matched up with Molly Holly as his new sidekick. Tazz loses to Shane & Booker T so you assume Tazz is out of the Alliance but we’ll get to that later. The final two matches are what I really want to talk about. Test & Stephanie McMahon defeat the Rock in 8:41 in a handicap match. From Meltzer’s recap: “Rock used the rock bottom on Test but Stephanie distracted heel ref Nick Patrick. Rock gave Patrick the rock bottom. Rock hip tossed Stephanie in and Booker and Shane ran in. It ended up with Shane, Booker and Test all destroying Rock including Test giving him the kick of death, Booker giving him the ax kick, Shane with the elbow off the top, Booker with the book end and finally Stephanie just stepped on Rock as Patrick counted the pin.”

My goodness Jim. You’re talking about the second biggest babyface in the company, he’s beginning the path to becoming the biggest movie star … and here’s Stephanie McMahon putting a foot on the Rock for the pin a week before he’s about to work Booker & Shane in a handicap match for a singles title. What do you think of this creative Jim?

And now the main event from Meltzer’s recap: “Main saw Jericho & Angle over Austin & Van Dam in 8:21. Really good, reminiscent of the days in the first few months of the year when most TV main events were kick ass matches. Good action and real good heat. Did one spot where Van Dam kicked Austin for the long-term tease. Ref bump. Everyone seemed to get their finishers on with no ref. Ankle lock on Austin, Van Dam saved. Jericho with walls on Van Dam, Austin saved. Austin hit Jericho with the ring bell. Went to hit Angle but Earl Hebner grabbed the bell from him. Angle got near falls with a schoolboy and a german suplex on Austin before finally hitting the Angle slam after a blocked stunner for the pin. Pretty much common sense booking to build the PPV. Nobody will ever admit this publicly in the WWF, but they have to be disappointed that Angle wasn't over far more as they've given him the old Hogan/Slaughter/Duggan patriot role when patriotism is suddenly the hot thing.”

It is weird when you take a look through the year as we have. You have in April one of the best tag matches in the history of the company between Triple H & Steve Austin against Chris Jericho & Chris Benoit and here it’s like we’ve gotten back to that point with this. Is it just the crush of acquiring WCW and ECW and trying to fit a massive talent roster into 4 hours of content each week?

Kurt is over… don’t get me wrong. You can hear USA chants, etc but Meltzer brings up a good point. When you’re looking for an escape from real life and your top babyface is an olympic gold medalist do you think that doesn’t help Angle?

Kid Kash gets a tryout at Smackdown the next day but doesn’t sign with the WWE until almost 5 years later. What was it about David Cash that kept him from being on the WWE roster at the time?

In Memphis on September 18th on the go-home Smackdown you’re doing the show with Michael Cole. What’s going on with the announcer shuffles at this time?

On the show there’s a weird angle. Tajiri and Torrie Wilson were put together as love interests. From Meltzer: “Smackdown opened with an Austin interview. He called out Wilson. Austin runs her down and makes her cry, yelling at her for being with Tajiri. Austin makes her cry some more until Tajiri comes in for the save, but Austin destroyed him. Austin threatens to go after Wilson again when Angle comes out. Angle starts destroying Austin when Tazz comes out, and guess what, attacks Angle and not Austin. Seriously, these constant repeated booking ideas where they turn people on one show and it's all a swerve will kill them almost as fast as the words WCW. Angle laid out Tazz, allowing Austin to post Angle and nail him with some chair shots and piledrives Angle on the floor twice. Angle does an angle where he has no feeling in his arms and he's stretchered out.”

Meltzer has a point here with the creative. Tazz is defeated and beaten by Booker & Shane the Raw before. I get you’re looking to make Austin an ultra heel and all this but the Torrie Wilson stuff isn’t great. Tazz turning back and forth isn’t great. Are there just times in creative...and look we’ve always been told “plans change” that from day-to-day there are just shifts?

Angle says he can’t feel his arms and he returns later on in the night. I get that creative had a lot of shifting to do after 9/11 and things were on the back burner for that one Smackdown but do you think things lose it’s luster and meaning when they get burned through so quickly?

The main event that night is a three-on-three elimination match. From Meltzer: “Main was Rock & APA vs. Booker & Test & Rhyno in an elimination match. Shane hit Bradshaw with a chair and Booker pinned him with the scissors kick. Faarooq goes next after a gore by Rhyno and kick of death and pin by Test. So Rock is alone with all three. This is his comeback for putting over Stephanie. DDTs Rhyno for the pin. Rock bottom on Test for the pin. So Rock and Booker are left, but Booker simply walks off for the count out loss. “

Hell of a comeback for the Rock here. Do you think this whole thing of the creative being lackluster a product of the environment at this point?

Jerry Lee Lewis is at that Smackdown and Rock sings “Great Balls of Fire” with him and asks him if he likes pie and Lewis says he likes poontang pie. I mean of course he does. Did you get a chance to meet Jerry and how he was he?

It’s reported that Lawler is at the Memphis Smackdown taping because of course he is. From the Observer: “It was not a surprise Lawler was there as his friends in the company (most notably Jim Ross) were hoping he would be there to at least start the ball rolling for everyone soothing a lot of bitter feelings from the way he left and also his not coming back on 7/2 after a deal was nearly finalized, not to mention that he had, in the opinion of many in WWF, crossed the line by how public he had made the situation and in portraying himself so strongly as the babyface (and many in Titan including Vince McMahon in particular as the heel). Lawler in making amends to people, basically told people that now he understands why the company fired Stacey Carter and that he made a mistake because he wasn't fully appraised of the reasons and that's why he defended her. Ross told him that he needs to finalize his divorce before considering coming back as mentioned last week. It looks like it's going to be a messy divorce he's going to go through and they would rather he returned with a clear head and without constant hearings to deal with that could get into his work schedule.”

You’re going to be there for your friend obviously as he’s going through the divorce but there’s a tough line to walk between business and pleasure. How hard was it to separate the two with Jerry at this time?

Brian Christopher is also there and talked with you about coming back as well is that correct?

OK Jim before we get to the pay-per-view it’s time to discuss business. The world’s changed from 9/11. The economic impact isn’t going to be felt really until pay-per-view time. Were there meetings and discussions about a drop in business?

Do you think there’s going to be talent cut because of monetary reasons?

You have a media conference all on September 20th before the pay-per-view and there’s a recap of it in the Observer to discuss. “Seemed to praise Test, Booker, RVD and Kanyon on the WCW side of making strides. Others were praising Hurricane and Ross was saying it had a ways to go. Didn't see anyone from developmental coming up to the majors by the end of the year, said 1-2 possibilities. Kind of said the upside is that everyone will have more ring time before their debuts. Noted Jazz (Carli Moore) had signed a deal and would be going to OVW to work with Sharmell Sullivan (Paisley) and Victoria. Really praised Victoria for moving from California to Memphis and then Louisville for very little money and Ross talked that all three of them could be on WWF TV by the end of the year. Sullivan's signing I think was largely a favor to Booker. Wasn't committal on Misterio Jr. or Guerrera, only saying there was no spot now for Guerrera and praised Misterio Jr.'s work but was very tempered as far as hinting he'd be signed when available next year. Basic theme was the current market makes it very difficult right now to break in. Said he's been amazed at how well the ratings held up over the past week. Did say battle plan when the groups are split up to have wrestlers exclusive to their one show, as opposed to guys working both Raw and Smackdown.”

The brand split eventually happens with just Raw and Smackdown. What do you think at this point Hurricane was missing?

Was Sharmell’s signing at the time as a favor to Booker T?

How important was it to hire the likes of Jazz & Victoria to get some wrestlers in that division?

How hard is it to bring people in at this point when your roster is just so full?

There are discussions between the WWF and Ric Flair around this time as well. What do you remember of these negotiations and is that a Vince McMahon idea or was it a mutual interest type of thing?

Alright Jim we’re here at the show. Unforgiven from Pittsburgh, PA draws 13,855 to the Mellon Arena which is 300 short of a sell out. 12,887 paid $648,115 with another $108,158 in merchandise sales. Not bad for a “B” show at the time is it not Jim?

The show does 350,000 buys which is down from 570,000 of SummerSlam. Was the 350,000 buys a good number considering the climate at the time?

Unforgiven in 2000 with The Rock vs. Chris Benoit vs. Kane vs. The Undertaker in a 4-way for the WWF World Title did 605,000 buys so you’re talking about almost half of that business is gone within a year. Why do you think that was?

There’s a telling stat to talk about before we get into the show. This will be the last time Kurt Angle main events a WWF pay-per-view until WrestleMania 19 in 2003. Do you think this pay-per-view is “blamed” on Kurt?

“1. Dudleys retained the WWF tag titles in a four-way over Big Show & Spike Dudley, Lance Storm & Hurricane and Hardys in 14:21. Show & Spike make a great visual walking to the ring with the size difference, similar to what WCW had with Wight & Rey Misterio Jr. and never went anywhere with. Show choke slammed Storm to eliminate his team in 6:52. Matt then pinned Spike with a twist of fate in 7:57. This left the Hardys vs. Dudleys match that they can probably do in their sleep by now. Mainly heat on Jeff, who took a very high backdrop, and didn't even tuck until the last possible split second. Finish saw them do a 3-D on Matt, but before the ref could count, Jeff did the swanton on D-Von, but then Bubba did a full nelson drop on Matt and D-Von scored the pin. Very good opener, but the crowd took it down a notch. ***¼”

The hot tag pop for Big Show was huge and I’m surprised there wasn’t much done with Show & Spike after this. Were Show & Spike and Storm & Hurricane added to this match just to get more people on the show or is it just thinking too much into those two teams being eliminated first for the “real” tag teams to finish. The crowd wasn’t much into it at the end. Pittsburgh has a reputation from this time of being a very tough crowd. What say you JR?

“2. Perry Saturn pinned Raven in 5:07. Both guys worked hard but the crowd was totally dead. Raven is in the best shape he's been in years. Fast-paced, maybe too fast paced although it didn't matter because the crowd wasn't going to care anyway. Saturn had his left eye busted open before winning with the spinning fisherman suplex. *¾”

This is of course about Moppy. These two really click well but it’s only 5 minutes and it just shows the luxury of talent you have when these two are second on and 5 minutes and it’s still good. Was there more to do with Raven too?

“3. Christian won the IC title from Edge in 11:53. This match and the previous match were very important, because they were wrestlers who needed a good performance, and even more, a good crowd response, to move them up a level. In the Raven-Saturn case, just to really get in the game. And for these guys, to be taken as serious singles players. In both cases, the work was there but the crowd reaction hurt everyone's chances. Edge was the next guy to get his eye busted open, his left, from an apparent errant punch and the eye was starting to swell as the match got going. Christian got two chairs to tease the concerto but Edge stopped him. Edge then got the chairs and teased doing it, but the ref pulled the chairs away and stopped him. While this was going on, Christian got a chair and gave Edge a low blow for the pin and title change. ***”

Here we are 20 years later and Christian is main eventing AEW pay-per-views and Edge main evented WrestleMania. These two were more than able to step up to the plate and knock it out of the park. A failure here would’ve been real bad for both guys wouldn’t you agree?

“4. Undertaker & Kane retained the WCW tag titles over Kronic in 10:22. A bad match which progressively got worse. Slow match with sloppy execution. Adams' selling is horrible, and against Undertaker & Kane, it required him to do so. His offense may have been worse than his selling. Spent some time getting heat on Undertaker to set up a hot tag. After about a minute, Undertaker came in for his own hot tag. He went for a choke slam on Clark first, but Steven Richards made the save. Didn't matter, because moments later Undertaker choke slammed Clark for the pin, and Kane choke slammed Richards to make the burial complete. -**

This may have been the worst WWF PPV match between male wrestlers all year and resulted in the end of Kronic's very brief stay in WWF. The word we got is that they claim they quit and one company source said they were dumped, but details weren't confirmed other than that they are gone after just three weeks and they had called up to try and get re-booked on the late October Russo tour of Australia. The story going around is that Jim Ross talked to them before the show on Monday and told them they were going to send them to HWA and they instead quit. If that story is correct, for wrestlers of their level of experience, the idea they were being sent down was a nice way of hoping that they would quit. Considering the finish, not the pinfall but blow-off nature, they already had made their decision before the match.”

Walk me through this Jim. It’s really bad and you’d think this wouldn’t be. How is the reaction in the office when it’s over? When is the decision made regarding Kronik and how did the conversation go?

“5. Rob Van Dam retained the hardcore title over Chris Jericho in 16:33. The one bright spot is that the audience itself seems to have decided that Van Dam is the next hot thing. Van Dam seemed to bust Jericho's eye with a kick and he needed stitches, legit. While busted eyes seemed to be the norm for the night, it should be noted how Van Dam is getting a major track record of doing so in recent matches. Finish saw Jericho deliver a hard chair shot to Van Dam's back, and went for another, but Stephanie came out and grabbed the chair. Earlier in the show, in the teased sexual tension spot, she said she'd do anything to help Van Dam win. He said he wasn't going to need the help but she pretty much said she was going to help him anyway. When Jericho turned around after pulling the chair away, he was hit with the Van Daminator and five star frog splash for the pin. ****”

What stalled RVD from being at the top? Was it his nature of busting people up in matches? What’s with the weird interaction between Stephanie and RVD and was that thought of a way to elevate him?

Jericho is really just being used here as a guy to put the new guy over. How was Jericho’s attitude around this time?

“6. Rock retained the WCW title winning a handicap match over Booker T and Shane McMahon in 15:23. Good match, but nothing special. Shane didn't do any of the high-risk moves he's famous for on PPV. With the high injury rate, they've definitely adopted a more safety oriented product, which is good. Unfortunately, they've weaned a generation of fans who don't care about the health of the performers and many get bored with a toned down product based more on ring psychology and basic moves. Shane grabbed the belt and first tried to hit Rock with it, but instead hit Booker, but then did hit Rock as well with it but Rock kicked out. This was to tell the Nick Patrick as heel ref story since he saw Shane hit Rock and didn't DQ him. Test clotheslined Rock right in front of the ref and gave him the kick of death, but Patrick wouldn't DQ for outside interference. Bradshaw ran out with a baseball bat and chased Test away. Mike Chioda came out as the face ref and when Shane went to pin Rock, pulled Shane off. Chioda and Patrick started arguing. Booker nailed Chioda at one point but Rock used a rock bottom on him and had him pinned. With both refs fighting on the floor, it figured to be a near fall, but Earl Hebner ran out and counted to three. ***¼”

There’s a lot of sizzle instead of steak here JR. The note about the high injury rate is important as the attempt to tone down the style and bumps, etc can hurt a crowd trained for it. Do you think that’s part of a business slow down at this time?

What did you think of the referees and interference? Just a lot of gaga for the sake of gaga?

“7. Rhyno won the U.S. title from Yoshihiro Tajiri in 4:50. Really good. Too short of course, but with these guys being put on after Rock and with people waiting for the main event, there was really no way they were going to get much heat and it was best the match was short. The idea was that they were alternating face and heel wins, and needed a heel win in between Rock and Austin's match. Finish was clean as a sheet, with Rhyno scoring a pin after the gore. ***.”

These are two guys that looking back are really solid wrestlers and maybe it’s their characters that aren’t established because they’re not great microphone people but man Tajiri’s facials and everything about him was so good. Was there more you could do with either of these two and they were just part of a roster crush?

“8. Kurt Angle captured the WWF title from Steve Austin in 23:12. Focused on the family at ringside. At least they were very believable in their enthusiasm. Started out really hot. Austin dropped Angle gut first three times on the spanish announcers table. For some reason, the crowd flattened out at about this point. Angle did three back suplexes and used Austin's stunner on him, but Austin kicked out. Naturally that meant Austin would use the Angle slam on Angle, which he did, and which Angle kicked out of. Finally, after teasing the piledriver as the killer move, Austin hit it, but Angle kicked out of the pin. Even though nobody has seen piledrivers in a long time since WWF did the unofficial ban, crowd didn't react to them with anywhere near the heat the announcers were trying to sell the move with. Finish was very basic almost Japanese style, as Austin went to kick Angle to set up the stunner, Angle caught the foot and put on the ankle lock. Austin managed to actually get to where he was under the ropes, but never grabbed the ropes and tapped out for the title switch. Give him credit that if they were going to do it, they did it the right way. The entire Angle family and most of the babyface wrestlers hit the ring for the celebration as the show went off the air. ****”

Now I recently spoke to Kurt about this on the Angle Pod and he said that he went to Vince McMahon after discussing it with Steve Austin that Kurt should go over and he wasn’t originally scheduled to. Is that how you remember it?

Kurt got very emotional discussing this because his mother was a big part of his journey and was at ringside. How good were both of these guys on this night and take away the Rock were these two the best in the business at this point?

The Wrestling Observer readers really enjoyed this show. 89.2% thumbs up, 3.8 thumbs in the middle and 7.1% thumbs down. What say you Jim?