The Kurt Angle Show - David Shultz + Foxcatcher [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Today, we’re talking about Kurt’s mentor and friend, David Schultz…

For all of you pro wrestling fans out there...we’re not talking about Dr. D (the guy who slapped John Stossel). We’re talking about David Schultz, the amateur wrestler who won an Olympic Gold Medalist in 1984. Tragically, he was murdered in 1996 just as Kurt prepared to win an Olympic gold medal.

Most people know about this story from the Netflix documentary film, Team Foxcatcher, or from the 2014 film “Foxcatcher.”

Today’s show is all about his story.

(Kurt, when did you first meet David Schultz?)

Let’s start with a little background...David Lesley Schultz was born on June 6, 1959 in Palo Alto, California to Dorothy Jean St. Germain and Phillip Gary Schultz. He had one brother, Mark, and two half-siblings.

Schultz began wrestling in junior high school at David Starr Jordan Middle School in Palo Alto coached by Robert Hoskins. By 1977, as a senior, his accolades were rolling in.

(Is there something about having siblings that lends itself to being a good amateur wrestler?)

Schultz's high school wrestling records included winning first place in the prestigious Great Plains freestyle tournament. He pinned 2-time NCAA champion and NCAA "Outstanding Wrestler" Chuck Yagla there. That qualified him to compete on an international team in what was then-Soviet Union territory of Georgia (not the state).

Schultz won the California State Championships wrestling two weight classes above his normal division! Schultz pinned all his opponents in the state championships but the last, whom he defeated 12–1 in the final match.

His brother Mark, who also wrestled and we will talk more about, wrote in his book saying Dave’s senior year is considered by most experts as the most successful senior year in U.S. high school wrestling history.

(For the layman...what was it about his high school senior year that stood out so much?)

Schultz’s star continued to shine in the amateur world in college where he was a three-time NCAA All-American, first at Oklahoma State University and then twice at the University of Oklahoma. His career collegiate record was 91–8 [(30–4) at Oklahoma State University, (61–4) at the University of Oklahoma].

(So he was a real-life Goldberg basically. What made him so good? What were his gifts?)

On the international stage, Schultz showed that he was no joke. In international competition, Schultz won a 1983 World Championship and a 1984 Olympic gold medal, competing with the United States team. Schultz won the gold medal at the 74 kg weight class over Martin Knosp from Germany.  He won four World Cup titles and two Pan American Games titles, and is the only American ever to twice win the prestigious tournament in Tbilisi, Georgia. In all, he was a seven-time World and Olympic medalist.

(By 1987, you were a senior winning state wrestling championships yourself. Were you watching amateur wrestling in 1984 and did you see Schultz’ gold medal victory?)

Remember how we told you his brother Mark also wrestled? Well, Dave and his brother Mark both won gold medals at the 1984 Olympics. Only one other set of brothers have ever pulled off that feat.

They both won gold medals...but the film paints a narrative that David Schultz casted a shadow over his brother. The movie suggests friction between the two brothers. Mark wrote that it was the filmmakers taking more creative liberties to spice up the story.

(Did David ever speak ill of his brother or did they seem supportive of each other?)

In the Spring of 1986, a wealthy philanthropist and donor makes multiple efforts to reach Mark. That man was John du Pont, who wanted to recruit Mark (and his brother David) to be coaches at a new wrestling program being established at Villanova University. This is where the movie takes creative liberties with actual events to help the story flow. Basically, years before Foxcatcher, du Pont tried to create a wrestling program but was unsuccessful. In 1987, on Christmas Day, Mark was traveling in Oregon on a recruiting trip. Du Pont called him on the phone and fired him. Less than two years after starting the wrestling program, it was mothballed.

(When you look back with the luxury of 20/20 hindsight, it seems like du Pont was behaving erratically much sooner than anyone realized. Was that what it was like after what happened in 1996? Looking back at so many moments and noticing things that were ‘off’?)

Mark continued living at the du Pont estate while training for the 1988 Olympics, living in a very small bedroom that he was “prepared to make a quick exit if necessary,” he wrote. Obviously, he was still uneasy about John du Pont.

Mark had trained for the 1988 Olympics in Seoul but when it came time, performed poorly. He apparently realized his days at the du Pont program were numbered.

(On the surface, it looks like du Pont became disgusted with Mark for not winning or being perfect. Is that how you look at it? Did either ever talk to you about this?)

(Mark is nowhere to be seen or mentioned in the Netflix Team Foxcatcher documentary. Any speculation why?)

But du Pont seemed to have his sights set on Mark’s brother, David. While David was wrestling, at various times, he began to coach wrestlers as well. He served as assistant coach at University of Oklahoma, Stanford, and University of Wisconsin-Madison. During this time frame, he helped with the du Pont program, including helping his brother. He was still at Wisconsin-Madison when, in 1989, he finally moved to Pennsylvania to a new training center du Pont had constructed. Those were the famous Foxcatcher facilities.

When Mark performed poorly in Seoul, he told Dave he couldn’t stay and asked him to leave, too. But as a condition for Dave remaining at the estate, the Schultz’ brothers made an arrangement for du Pont to continue to support Mark financially. At the time, du Pont was worth at least $200 million.

(Did you ever have any conversations with Dave about this decision? [If not, offer insight into what might have made him make this decision from the time you knew him])

The relationship between John and Dave continued to develop and would last for several years before the events of 1996.

Here’s how Variety described it.

Du Pont was a lonely, socially inept prince desperate to be embraced by his tough world-class athletes as “one of them.” And Dave — sympathetic to the man’s strangeness, and dependent on him for support for not only himself, but his wife, kids and the athletes he’d recruited on Du Pont’s behalf — was his favorite, an open-hearted bear of a man who not only embodied the athletic greatness Du Pont himself coveted, but humored the wealthy philanthropist’s own wrestling dreams, going so far as to coach him in competitions for which, as old videos expose, he was thoroughly unfit.

(How accurate of a description would you say those words are?)

In the Team Foxcatcher documentary on Netflix, they explore this more. There would be a “Masters” style wrestling tournament set up for those over the age of 50 and du Pont’s opponents would willingly lose for him. The film portrays du Pont as an inept wrestler.

(That seems like something highly unusual. Were you there when this stuff happened at Foxcatcher farm?)

Around the same time Dave Schultz moved to Pennsylvania was when you and he first met. You said that he had been a personal mentor to you since your sophomore year in college. You first met him at a summer camp at Northwestern University and said that Dave took a quick liking to you.

(It seems like you two had a common bond in that you both had an incredible work ethic. Am I far off?)

In your book, you wrote that you would regularly go to train at the Team Foxcatcher wrestling facility over the years leading up to 1996 and even lived there, off and on for about six years.

(When did you begin training at the Foxcatcher facilities and how did that begin? Why did you decide not to live there full-time?)

One of the most intriguing parts of this entire story is obviously about your interactions with John du Pont. You wrote that you never saw anything to make you believe he was mentally unstable but it was obvious he had substance problems and wasn’t good with personal relationships.

After winning the national title your sophomore year, you went to Foxcatcher to meet with John. You said you sat down with him in his TV room in his beautiful mansion and told you he’d like you to sign with his team. There was a bare spot on the wall and he said one day, you could be on that wall as a world champion.

Pretty cool recruiting tactic.

(What was he like, toward you? What were your first impressions of him?)

When you weren’t living there...You’d call Dave Schultz, go to train, and he would help you push yourself to the limit - something you did a lot of during your Olympic training (which we will get to talk about more coming up on our Olympics 96 episode for the 25th anniversary).

But Dave Schultz apparently could push you more than just about anyone else. You wrote that he was the only guy who weighed less than 170 pounds that ever kicked your ass on the wrestling mat. Coming out of college, you weighed 225 pounds while Dave was 169 pounds...and you said he handed your ass to you more than you want to remember!

Apparently, he had a mean streak too. Guys would shoot for takedowns and he would choke guys in a front headlock, then pin them really quick before the referee would notice they were out! He did that so much, they started watching for it in the Olympics in 84 - and he still won.

(What was the training process with Schultz like? Would you go there and stay a few days or come back home on the same day? Walk us through how this worked.)

“...that’s how good Dave was. His execution was so perfect, he just chewed me up, and I was already a two-time NCAA champion. But this was freestyle, and Dave was a master of the international style. He had cutting edge moves, unconventional stuff that you never saw anyone else use. He had some judo tricks that would blow your mind. That’s why he learned eight different languages - he wanted to be able to talk to wrestlers all over the world, study, and learn their techniques.”

(That’s a level of dedication that is really hard to comprehend. Including yourself, has anyone you’ve ever known been as dedicated to the craft?)

He was a nice guy on all accounts but at the same time, apparently he had a mean streak. You said he had a mean streak like you’ve never seen and would inflict pain. Rumor was that he broke a Turkish wrestler’s arm in 84 and had received credible death threats from fans. It was so serious that, in 1989, when you were in Istanbul for a tournament, your guides were worried for your safety because they thought you were Mark Schultz!

Fortunately, nothing happened. But, as you wrote, Dave had a reputation for being the “bad boy of wrestling and for countries where wrestling is the biggest sport...that had some results.

(You’re not even legally of drinking age and you’re dealing with this stuff on a different continent! Was that a scary experience? Did it ever discourage you from pursuing more foreign opportunities?)

It wasn’t the worst overseas experience you had. Dave Schultz was there for that one, too, but this time, it really wasn’t his fault!

You wrote in your book that you had your worst overseas experience in Russia in 1995, on a trip Dave Schultz attended with you. Basically, you had just won the world championships in Atlanta and flew to Russia to face their best team. It was a long trip and when you got there, you went for a run. All of a sudden, a river dog is running alongside you - dirty, disgusting, foaming at the mouth. The dog starts barking at you and eventually, it bit a chunk out of your leg!

(What do you remember happening here?)

[The dog bit a three-quarter inch hole into his leg, then attacked. You fought it off by kicking it until it was tired and ran away, according to your book. Then you were concerned you had rabies!]

So in your book, you wrote that you went back to the hotel and Dave Schultz was there. He spoke Russian and found someone to take you to the hospital. The story is like a movie because at this point, Dave can’t go with you. But the driver...he takes off going 120 mph down the wrong side of the freeway! You finally get there and the nurse is on a break and doesn’t want to stop reading a book for about an hour. She finally cleans you up and gives you a rabies shot - probably not fun.

(Tell us more about this awful experience. What did Dave think when you got back to the hotel? How did you manage to finish the trip?)

In chapter 7 of your book, you wrote that you had made the same phone call dozens of times. It was January, 1996, and you wanted to call Dave Schultz to tell him you’d be coming to workout at the Team Foxcatcher wrestling facility the next day. You left him a message. When you came home from training that night, you turned on the TV and on CNN, you saw your friend’s photo. He had been murdered. The news anchor told the story. John du Pont allegedly had shot Dave Schultz without reason. You said it was shocking but at the same time, in a weird way, it wasn’t.

(Was that because John du Pont had just really gone off the deep end in the years leading up to this? There are stories of him driving cars into lakes and doing all sorts of weird stuff.)

Du Pont was always considered eccentric but in the weeks leading up to the murder, you wrote that you had begun to hear of more and more bizarre behavior from him. One example, which we alluded to earlier, was of him driving cars into the lake. Because it happened more than once. He had a wrestling official in a Lincoln Town Car and drove it down the hill and right into the lake! It was the second time he had driven a car into the lake in four days.

Four days before the murder, John fell down in his house and knocked himself out. When he came to, he was convinced one of the wrestlers had hit him in the head with a bat and went looking for the wrestler, threatening various guys and even throwing some off the farm.

People didn’t think he was crazy so much as they thought he was on drugs, at least, at the time. But clearly, he was losing grip on his sanity.

(Were you hearing this from others who were on the farm? Had Dave ever confided in you about his concerns?)

You had experienced some of it, yourself. In one instance, you wrote that he thought you were haunting him from inside his walls. Other people were in his office when he said “Angle, if you don’t get out from behind my wall, I’m gonna shoot it.” Which, in retrospect, is pretty horrifying.

You said that one of the most unnerving parts of the entire experience was how it could have been you. You could have been the one that du Pont murdered. You knew him and you were literally going to be there the next day. Plus, who knows how many other times du Pont had come close to going off the deep end.

(Was that hard for you to make peace with? And did you ever go back to the farm again?)

We have to talk about the incident itself. We’ve talked about the movies and documentaries and they’re all out there if you’re wanting to know more. January 26, 1996...Du Pont drives with his security to Dave’s house on the farm. By this point, Du Pont had hired a retired FBI agent as his personal security because of his growing paranoia. Dave was outside working on the car. Du Pont rolls up, rolls down the window, and asks Dave if he has a problem with him. Then he shot him. The FBI agent jumped out of the car and ran off. Du Pont shoots Dave again. His wife Nancy comes running out of the house. Du Pont aims the gun at her and tells her to go back inside. As a wounded Schultz is crawling away, John Du Pont shoots him in the back a third time. David Schultz is dead within minutes.

(Do you remember your reaction when you heard the graphic details for the first time? Not the initial news reports...we’re talking about the details of the agony like we just talked about. What did you feel when you learned what happened?)

“The John du Pont I knew had to know what he was doing when he killed Dave. I just think he was very sinister. Other people who saw him do some of those weird things on the farm might have different opinions. He might have gone back to doing drugs. But sometimes I think he had this little make-believe world. As much as I hate him for what he did, I felt bad for him in some ways. Even with all that money, he was never happy with his life. His parents expected a lot of him and he didn’t deal with that well.”

It makes us all feel comfortable to think that he was this good man who simply snapped or took chemicals. But your words here give me the impression that you might have a different view - and maybe one that is more in touch with reality…

(Do you think John du Pont hid his true nature from the world? Is it possible he was always a sociopath or even a psychopath and no one wanted to see it because of his wealth?)

After Du Pont murdered Schultz, he went back to his mansion and was holed up for about sixty hours before the cops tricked him into coming outside - although you wrote in your book you thought he knew he would be arrested when he came out and was just giving up without admitting he gave up.

There was some controversy with how gently the police handled du Pont. He had a close relationship with the cops and let them train on his farm. If you didn’t know, most police stand-offs do not last three days.

(This was a news event that lasted for several days. What were you thinking while watching everything unfold? Were you angry that it took so long to take him into custody?)

The death of Dave Schultz caused agony for the family. He left behind his wife, Nancy; a son, Alexander; and a daughter, Danielle. We think about them and what they experienced to this day.

But it was difficult for friends and wrestlers who were close as well.

The agony was drawn out during the murder trial. Du Pont’s defense lawyers tried to paint the American wrestling team as taking advantage of the mentally ill man when he had been the one who showed an interest in the sport.

(Did you follow the trial as it was happening or learn about this later? What was your reaction?)

Du Pont pleaded insanity but that defense was thrown out of court and on February 25, 1997, he was found guilty of third-degree murder. It wasn’t a normal guilty verdict, instead a “guilty but mentally ill” verdict. The judge sentenced him to 13 to 30 years incarceration. Du Pont was housed at the State Correctional Institution - Mercer, a minimum-security facility in Pennsylvania.

A wrongful death lawsuit was filed by the widow against du Pont. Anonymous sources told the Philadelphia Inquirer that du Pont had to pay at least $35 million to the family as part of an undisclosed settlement.

Du Pont was first eligible for parole on January 29, 2009 - but he was never granted it. On December 9, 2010, he died at the age of 72 from COPD. He was buried in his red Foxcatcher wrestling singlet, in accordance with his will.

(Up until then, it was plausible that he could be a free man again...while David Schultz never could enjoy that luxury. Did John du Pont’s death bring any closure to you?)

After what happened, you left team Foxcatcher. You wrote personally, there was no way you could stay on at the club. You were the first wrestler to quit.

When you did, Nancy Schultz called you to thank you and said you were now an official member of the Dave Schultz Wrestling Club, which she formed after his death. They paid your expenses to the Olympics.

You even said that wasn’t an easy decision in your book. But, you also felt like that you couldn’t remain involved with Foxcatcher anymore.

(What was the deciding moment for you, just a few months away from winning the Olympic gold medal, to take this risk?)

We know what happens next. Atlanta. The 1996 Olympics. Gold medal. You know. It’s going to be a full episode coming up this summer on The Kurt Angle Show.

I know we’re going to save most of our conversation about the Olympics and the lead up to them for that episode but there’s one question that is really relevant to ask here.

(Did the death of your friend make you work even harder to win the big one for him?)

So now, let’s skip to the part where you are a brand new Olympic gold medalist. You’ve just won. Here’s what you wrote:

“I had gone so far as to wrestle and win the Olympic trials just months earlier with what amounted to a broken neck, receiving injections of mepivacaine before every match despite warnings from doctors that I was risking paralysis. It sounds idiotic, I know, but I was blinded by my quest to become an Olympic champion. And now, finally, it was over and I was aching to let go of all of the emotion I’d been storing over the years - for myself, for my late father, for my family members in the stands. And for Dave Schultz, my friend and coach, who had been shot and killed months earlier by John du Pont, the crazed millionaire who sponsored the amateur wrestling club to which I’d once belonged.”

(You said a prayer on the wrestling mat after you won. I wonder if you said anything to your late friend?)

In winning the gold, you became the first Olympic champion of the Dave Schultz Wrestling Club.

After winning, you held a big press conference and wrote that you saw Nancy in the crowd, crying. You said, to the crowd, “Nancy, I just want you to know Dave had the greatest impact in the world on me. That one was for Dave, too. I want to thank you for everything you did for me and I especially want to thank your husband for helping me win the gold medal.”

It really seems like it meant a lot to her to see you win that year, in his honor. During a year from hell, it had to offer her some hope.

(Did you feel like that victory was, in some way, a victory for her, too? Did she ever talk to you about how much it meant to her?)

You had glowing things to say about her in your book, including giving her a lot of credit for helping keep wrestling in America strong enough to compete internationally.

(Have you and Nancy Schultz stayed in touch? How is she?)

Let’s bring the focus back to David Schultz.

When he died, David Schultz was thirty-six years old...he was past his elite prime from the 80s but he was still trying to make the Olympics one last time. And he was great. He was ranked number one in the USA in his weight class in 1995.

(Do you think he could have medaled again in the Olympics if he had been able to go? Would you and he have been in different weight classes?)

From that point, we know your career would eventually lead you to the world of professional wrestling. But what a lot of people might not have known is…

(You paid homage to Dave Schultz with your wrestling gear early on, right?)

[Early singlet was styled after a Dave Schultz singlet; Blue with the American shield, right Kurt?]

(Overall, where do you think Dave Schultz would be ranked among the best amateur wrestlers of all time?)