Grilling JR - WrestleMania 25 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Let’s get into your last full WrestleMania call - all the way back at WrestleMania 25 - for some reason called the 25th Anniversary of WrestleMania - was that weird to you?

There was a lot going on in WWE in 2009 heading into WrestleMania 25. At this point JR you had been announcing on SmackDown since July of 2008, and was working with Tazz by this point.

Talk about working with Tazz on commentary. How was your chemistry?

In hindsight, anything you would've done differently, or changed about either of your styles?

WWE moved to PG which led to changes including no more blood, no annual Playboy photo shoot crossover, and changing the name of Cena’s finisher from the FU to the Attitude Adjustment.

What did you think about those changes? If it was up to you, would you of made the same changes?

The movie “The Wrestler” starring Mickey Rourke was released and was arguably the best received wrestling movie of all time.

According to IMDb, the movie grossed over $44 million against an approximate budget of $6 million. The project wound up winning Mickey Rourke a Golden Globe for Best Actor (in addition to Oscar nominations for Rourke and Marisa Tomei individually), and the movie itself earned overwhelmingly positive reviews from critics and a general audience.

What did you think of the movie?

Were you surprised by how well it was received?

What would you say was accurate about the depiction of a wrestler's life and what was inaccurate in the same ways about the movie?

Randy Orton won the 2009 Royal Rumble match by eliminating Triple H. On the Raw before the Rumble was when Orton memorably punted Vince McMahon in the head. The Orton - McMahon - Triple H story is one that is very well remembered - what do you think it was about that story that worked?

From the Observer

Austin is still at this point scheduled to wrestle a farewell match at Mania. There is a lot of politicking going around regarding the match, but Austin isn’t working with Hogan. Orton is in play with the obvious angle, but it doesn’t appear to be a lock. Months ago I heard the idea internally was Austin vs. Rock as a 25th anniversary special match, but never thought it was anything but the most remote of possibilities. And obviously, it’s less than a remote possibility. 

Is any of that true that Steve was going to wrestle at WrestleMania 25? Do you remember any names being tossed around - and how much contact were you in with Steve at this point?

Jim Ross, who is one of the few people in the company who has remained in regular contact with Dwayne Johnson, wrote this past week in response to a Q&A that he fully believes Rock will never wrestle again. When reading that, it led one to believe they tried and failed to get him

How much things has changed right?

It’s also reported in the Observer that creative was told to get a potential storyline ready for Mickey Rourke to wrestle Chris Jericho. What would a Mickey Rourke - Chris Jericho match had looked like could you imagine?

It felt like the WWE originally hated the Wrestler - but when it came up as Rouek possibly winning an Academy Award and being able to build for something for WrestleMania - they changed their tune on it. Did Vince McMahon originally hate it?

The Rourke - Jericho storyline started on Larry King - but eventually it would fizzle and he would only appear at ringside. Were you sad that didn’t match get to happen?

Around this time as well Chris Jericho made national news in the US & Canada from an incident outside a building in Canada where fans attacked him and Jericho pushed back and got into it with a young woman. What did you think of the situation and was Jericho in the right?

Was there heat on Chris for this?

At No Way Out - Triple H would win the SmackDown elimination chamber to win the WWE title and Edge would win the Raw chamber later on in the night to win the World Title. Edge would be eliminated in the SmackDown chamber match in just 3 minutes and Hunter would go to claim the prize while Edge inserted himself into the Raw match after an injury - is that too much movement of the main titles right before WrestleMania?

From the Observer

The best possibility for business for Austin was Hogan, because people will take that as a dream match that will only happen once that they have to see. Austin has always been negative of that one and it does nothing to build the product because neither will be part of the mix after the show. The only thing we’ve really heard about Austin these days is he’s very serious about acting, taking classes and trying to break into the field. 

Should that match have happened at WrestleMania 18, in 2002 instead of Hogan vs Rock?

Jim Ross did note Austin is in awesome shape, but made it clear he was training hard to be in the best shape for an upcoming movie role, and not a match. The one positive from his standpoint is that he never spent like a big shot and thus, is under no pressure to do anything he doesn’t want to do.

Did you ever see Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan in a ring together?

On SmackDown 2/20/09

“HHH did a sit-down interview with Jim Ross. He kept it short and sweet, saying his father-in-law was 63 and noting Stephanie as his wife and mother of his children. It’s not like everyone didn’t already know and they didn’t play it up like a shocking revelation, nor did they make any attempt to explain it in a storyline fashion given the history of the pretend divorce or the DX vs. McMahons feud. It was interesting revealing Vince’s age only because in wrestling parlance, it was kind of an admission Vince was old and maybe can’t be wrestling, because the idea of a 63-year-old wrestling is ridiculous. 

What sit down interview with HHH did you like more, this one or the one you two did in 1999 before SummerSlam

It was time to make the connection between Hunter & Stephanie right?

On Raw 2/23/09:

“Steamboat was announced for the HOF. Jericho came out and noted Rourke lost the Oscar and is now a loser, just like Flair, Piper and Steamboat. He said that Steamboat had all those great matches with Flair in the NWA, and noted WWF pretended the NWA never existed, and then he came and sold his soul becoming the Dragon and doing these martial arts poses. He said Steamboat ended up a loser, broken down, broken family and then came crawling back for a job and how he gets his pat on the head when they put him in the Hall of Fame.

He called him a hypocrite. Steamboat then did one of the best promos of his life, saying Jericho was the hypocrite as he would kiss up to the fans and turn on the fans over and over. Steamboat brought up that 20 years ago Jericho came up to him, asked him for his autograph and told him he was his hero, and then mentioned he said it himself in his autobiography. It ended with Jericho attacking Steamboat and throwing him into the wall of the stage. An incredible performance by both men.”

This was not something the WWE normally did - and that’s what made it work the best did it not?

Were you surprised to see the level of promo from Steamboat? Not exactly known as a promo guy…

Orton & Hunter have theri feud going on and Orton of course has Cody & Ted DiBiase from Legacy as his heaters - what did you think of the Legacy group?

From the Observer

Smackdown 2/27/09:

The show started with Cena out for the first time on Smackdown in two years. Cena came out and told lame jokes nobody laughed at. He looked at J.R. and said that Michael Cole had gained weight and was now wearing a cowboy hat like the Village People. I’d say they need better writers for Cena’s comedy. 

Not everything was great coming from Cena at this time - was this just a creative miss?

“Next saw Kozlov pin Undertaker clean. I was told this match was terrible live. Also heard they would be editing it to clean it up. The editors did a hell of a job because it came across as decent, other than a snake eyes spot which at this point Undertaker should just give up on because Kozlov doesn’t go up well for it. Finish was Undertaker doing his old school rope walk and Kozlov pulled him off into a powerslam for the clean pin.”

They just loved Kozlov didn’t they? I mean to pin Taker clean like this is something isn’t it?

The story of Matt Hardy wanting to fight his brother Jeff - just didn’t really click for me. What was it about these two that no one ever wanted to see them face off against each other?

The next week on Raw…

“Show opened with a Piper’s Pit stage and Piper’s music, but it was Jericho out. He showed the Piper’s pit segment from 1984 with Jimmy Snuka, where Piper hit Snuka with a coconut. Jericho called out Snuka as his guest. Another good segment, but nothing like the previous two weeks because Jericho was having to do this one solo. Jericho compared Snuka to Randy the Ram, noting he’s in his mid-60s (65) and still doing independent shows in New Jersey (and other places). He told Snuka to retire and that he had no dignity.”

Snuka being involved here - it’s going to build to Roddy - but this was Vince just giving him one more payday right?

Shawn Michaels would pin Kozlov on Raw to earn a match with the Undertaker at WrestleMania. When you look at the history of the company - for those two to have never faced off at Mania - it’s surprising isn’t it?

Having Taker lose to Kozlov before he lost to Michaels - really didn’t end up making much sense did it?

From the Observer 3/11/09:

“Hulk Hogan posted on Twitter on 3/4 to watch Raw over the next few weeks in the latest saga of maneuverings leading up to a show that, with Steve Austin apparently not wrestling, could use his involvement since it appears there is an element missing.

At this point it’s anyone’s guess whether this means he and Vince McMahon have reached a deal. He could be using the Internet to pressure Vince by getting word out that it would be a letdown if he’s not there, thus theoretically up his bargaining power. And just as likely, it could be that he’s just trying to keep his name out there.”

This is just Hulk being Hulk right?

Meltzer discusses the business of the show:

“Even though Wrestlemania seems to lack a spark right now, it has been noted the economic signs are good. While not sold out, the live gate is already about $5.8 million with one month to go, so by the time this is read, it will likely have broken the Orlando record from last year for the biggest gate in wrestling history. In addition, the Hall of Fame is very close to being sold out and well ahead of the pace last year for a show built around Ric Flair and the return of The Rock. Ratings are also the consistently strongest they’ve been for Raw in two years.”

Viewership always grows around this time for WrestleMania - wrestling fans just know don’t they?

“Marty “Boogeyman” Wright was released on 3/4. Honestly, I was surprised he lasted this long. The deal is he did have a unique gimmick that was effective a few years back on Smackdown because he was so different from everyone else. But it wasn’t a gimmick that had legs.”

Chat me up about the Boogeyman JR!

“Smackdown on 2/27, built around a match that ended up not happening with Matt Hardy vs. Jeff Hardy, as well as the return of John Cena to the show after two years, set another MyNetwork TV ratings record with a 2.32 rating. The audience of 3.996 million was just under the 1/23 record of 4.025 million. Of those viewers, 897,000 were from Hispanic households (22.4%), the highest total since Mysterio was drafted and the show moved networks.”

When you look at total viewers - it’s a stark contrast from today isn’t it?

Observer 3/16/09:

John Layfield (JBL) has been talking about an imminent retirement due to back problems. Layfield said this past week that the back problems, which ended his career the first time in 2006, have continued and that his career would probably be over by May. Layfield, 42, who won the IC title from C.M. Punk on Raw on 3/9 in Jacksonville, is not listed in May house show bookings that have been released. Layfield also claimed he would be doing something historical, that would shock the wrestling world and change the WWE forever at Wrestlemania. 

JBL was in really bad shape at this time wasn’t he? John had done enough to retire at this point don’t you think?

“SmackDown 3/6/09:

Show opened with Undertaker coming out and cutting a serious, non-zombie promo about Michaels and WrestleMania. I'm told that Bruce Prichard was the guy who always insisted on a supernatural base to the Undertaker promos and with him gone, things have changed. They showed a WrestleMania video package for HBK, which was quite great, and Undertaker said many men had tried to make their name at his expense at prior WrestleManias, all had fallen, and Shawn would be no different. He told Shawn he'd better start praying.”

Would you agree with that about Bruce and Taker’s character?

Was it weird to be building to a WrestleMania without having Bruce involved?

On Raw:

“Throughout the show they pushed HHH vs. DiBiase & Rhodes in a handicap match as the main event. DiBiase & Rhodes were in the ring and HHH’s music played, but there was no HHH. It played again, and he didn’t come out again. DiBiase & Rhodes demanded to be awarded the win via forfeit, which they were. Then they cut back to Orton’s house where Orton was furious at HHH for having no guts, saying he didn’t think HHH would even show up at Mania. The doorbell started ringing a few times. He told “Samantha” to go get it. Orton continued his promo until midway through a sentence, he figured out what the viewers already knew, and started telling his wife not to answer the door. This skit was at least better than two weeks ago’s HHH chasing Orton with a sledge hammer skit, but it was still pretty bad. She started screaming as he pounded in the door with a sledge hammer. Then everyone ran away and HHH went through the house looking for Orton. 

He’d go in rooms and there were random people in different rooms who were never identified. Who were all these people? They’d all run away. He went everywhere looking for Orton. Orton then jumped him and they brawled, with HHH throwing Orton threw a window to the front yard. HHH then jumped out the window and was pounding him on the grass when police showed up. A couple of the guys were from FCW. They held him while Orton screamed that he wanted him arrested for breaking and entering. As HHH was cuffed, Orton ran after him and started throwing punches. Finally the police took HHH away.”

This is one of those classic angles - what did you think of it?

Andrew ‘Test’ Martin passed away on 3/12 aged 33, five days before his 34th birthday.

What can you tell us about Andrew Martin JR?

In the Observer 3/30/09:

“More shakiness regarding Smackdown’s future due to the questions about the future of MyNetworkTV. The network, in its third year of operations and deep in the red, has gone to its affiliates and tried to change the contract terms, most notably changing the five year deals to one year deals. All the network affiliates were asked to tear up the contracts which ended in September of 2011, for a new one-season deal for the 2009-2010 year. Essentially, even though it’s being spinned differently, it looks more real than ever that next could be the last year of the network, which then bring up questions about the future of Smackdown.”

This has to be tough at the time for the company does it not?

On this classic episode of Raw in the final build for WrestleMania:

“The show opened with Flair in the ring and Jericho walking through the backstage doing a tremendous promo. Jericho came to the ring and was running Flair down while Flair did that usual Flair scripted deal where he has to stand there and say nothing. Then he started making his comeback and Jericho punched him out of nowhere. Flair juiced right away from a hard way to the eye. You could see Flair checking if the punch got the job done. Even though blading is prohibited and you aren’t supposed to bleed, there was no question they set out to bleed. 

Jericho kept on him, tearing his shirt up. He hit Flair with the TV monitor, and opened up a second cut in the back of Flair’s head. Flair needed 11 staples after the show to close the second cut.  It was kind of illogical at certain points because it went so long and nobody went to make the save. Also, they were brawling right in front of Lawler. Lawler has a pet peeve that when a babyface is getting destroyed right in front of him, he thinks it makes him look stupid to just stand there and do nothing.”

What did you think of this angle and the use of blood?

Do you know that about King and everything?

“Main event was supposed to be HHH vs. Orton & DiBiase in a handicap match. The idea of HHH vs. Orton in an actual match this close to Mania with the kind of grudge angle they were building sounded stupid. And they knew it, as it was no match. It was just a beatdown by Orton, DiBiase and Rhodes. Rhodes came from under the ring when HHH tried to get the sledge hammer he’d hidden. They handcuffed him to the ropes and were pounding on him. Orton teased hitting HHH with the sledge hammer unless Stephanie would come out. 

She did, and all three members of Legacy surrounded her. She tried to escape, but Orton hooked her for a DDT. What was so great about this angle is they teased everything for so long, and had the announcers lay out, which built everything up. HHH screamed for him not to do it while being handcuffed to the ropes. He did it, and HHH started crying at first. 

Then Orton grabbed the sledge hammer and teased hitting her with it, but instead bent over and kissed her. Then he nailed HHH with the sledge hammer and the show ended with them going to the back. HHH recovered too quickly after the sledge hammer shot but the angle really put the spark back in a program that had really lost steam the past few weeks.”

This is the most watched video WWE has ever put on YouTube - even all these years later. This was the perfect angle needed for the program wasn’t it?

Observer 4/6/09:

“With all the television shot and angles completed, the success or failure of Wrestlemania clearly this year depends on the brand name.

The final Raw on 3/30 contained only one significant angle, the return of Vince and Shane McMahon at the end of the show, who, along with HHH, ended the show in a brawl with Randy Orton, Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes.”

When you see all this - and the build has been good - but there’s nothing WrestleMania sized compared to even the year before with Flair’s retirement & Floyd Mayweather - it showed the strength of the brand of Mania did it not?

Meltzer would say this

“There has probably never been a Wrestlemania where the legitimate top guy in the company has been more wasted than John Cena in the three-way with Edge and Big Show. One angle involving a wife of a star is enough. The deal is, I don’t think anybody really suspends disbelief to the point they accept Big Show and Vickie Guerrero are having a secret affair. From that point on, there is an emotional disconnect with the entire angle.”

It did seem like it was just a paint by numbers with the whole Edge - Cena - Show thing with Vickie. Would you had rather it been Edge & Cena?

With all this going on…

“Tazz finished up with the company when his contract expired on 3/31. His leaving was not unexpected as the feeling was he would be done shortly after Wrestlemania, but he did leave on his own terms, which Vince McMahon is not fond of. McMahon and Tazz had a meeting on TV on 3/30 in Dallas and they were amicable to each other. Publicly the word is that Tazz was burned out and wanted to take time off. 

While wrestlers are allowed leaves of absences, announcers are not, and there is a rule of thumb among announcers that you don’t, under any circumstances, miss a show, which explains why Jim Ross worked the 3/17 tapings in Corpus Christi while suffering from pneumonia and Mike Tenay worked TNA tapings last year with a bad elbow infection that he should have avoided traveling on.”

Jim - did you know of the issues with Tazz?

Were you surprised to see him leave the company before WrestleMania?

Was it the same situation that Mick Foley dealt with - and Tazz had just had enough?

Ever imagine you’d be at a desk again with Tazz - let alone all these years later in AEW?

Meltzer would say this:

“Jim Ross is a lifer in the business and has made his peace that he can live with the situation, plus it is beneficial for him with restaurants bearing the J.R. name to remain with a weekly television presence.”

Is that an accurate way to describe you at this point in your WWE career?

With the big induction taking place in Houston - let’s talk about the Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame ceremony:

-Dory Funk Jr. & Terry Funk inducted by Dusty Rhodes

It had to be surreal for a lot of NWA people to see Dusty Rhodes induct the Funks am I right?

-Koko B. Ware inducted by the Honky Tonk Man

Koko is one a lot of people point at when they question the Hall of Fame - what say you?

-The Von Erichs inducted by Michael Hayes

A lot of speculation over the years is that the Von Erichs made it in because the WWE acquired the tape library - but they were no doubt hall of famers right?

-Howard Finkel inducted by Gene Okerlund

Nothing like him in this industry before, during or after right?

-Bill Watts inducted by Jim Ross

What was this like for you?

Did Bill ask you to do this?

We’ll get to the main eventer in a minute - but do you think if Watts wasn’t inducted - you would’ve had a chance to induct Austin?

-Ricky Steamboat inducted by Ric Flair

What a well deserved honor - and him getting to wrestle the next night in front of an audience unlike any other in his career…a hell of a guy right JR?

-Steve Austin inducted by Vince McMahon 

The first man inducted into the hall of fame by Vince - not including James Dudley - but the man who carried the company on his shoulders - kicked off the Attitude era - what an honor it had to be for him right JR?

From the Observer:

“There were more changes than both putting a giant screen with a time limit on everyone. In the days before the show, the ten minutes each inductee was going to get was cut to five, while the presenters’ three minutes to introduce stayed the same. In the crowd, the biggest and most impressive thing was the countdown clock on the screen, which really rubbed in how staged and limited the process was going to be. The only exceptions were for the televised inductees, Ricky Steamboat and Austin. That meant two-and-a-half minutes each for Dory & Terry Funk, since they went in as a unit, to talk.”

What do you say to how this format took place and do you think it shorted the guys like Funk their moment?

At the end of the day - it’s a TV show and entertainment…right?

“The day before, most of those involved sat with members of the WWE writing team. Yes, some of the greatest talkers in history, like Terry Funk or Cowboy Bill Watts, were supposed to do promos like John Cena, working off a prepared script that they worked with a WWE writer. The forced references to Wrestlemania at points didn’t feel natural, although when Steamboat brought up Chris Jericho, Jimmy Snuka and Roddy Piper, and cut a promo to build their match, it got over well.

Watts appeared to be the only one who chucked his script and ignored his time cues. And even though he was easily the least well known to the crowd there, his speech ended up as the highlight of the show past the recognition pops for people like Steve Austin, McMahon, Flair and Steamboat.”

Were you in the room for all this JR?

Do you agree with Vince saying that Austin was the greatest superstar of all-time?

Do you know if any other wrestlers had a problem with Vince proclaiming that?

That takes us to WrestleMania 25

PPV buys - 960,000

Last year WrestleMania 24 buys - 1,024,000

Was it a surprise to see you to see it down?

“A. Carlito & Primo Colon (WWE tag team champions) beat The Miz & John Morrison (World tag team champions) to became the unified champs in 8:20. This was moved the day of the show to being a dark match, taped for the DVD. On the PPV, the match was never acknowledged as having happened, or talked about, I guess for fear people would get mad about it being pushed for weeks on television, and they just figured that if they don’t acknowledge the match at all, nobody would think about it and get mad.”

When decisions like this are made - and you’re not in a talent relations role at this point - it has to be tough for the talent doesn’t it?

The lumberjacks (ie, the guys with no role but allowed to participate and get a token Mania payoff) were Great Khali, Cryme Tyme, Jamie Noble, Charlie Haas, Hurricane Helms, Goldust, Jimmy Wang Yang, Evan Bourne, R-Truth, William Regal, Paul Burchill, Tommy Dreamer, Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler , The Brian Kendrick, Ezekiel Jackson, Mike Knox, Vladimir Kozlov, Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder.

Is it worth it for these guys even to get a payday in your mind?

“With Tazz gone, they went with a three-man team of Jim Ross, Jerry Lawler and Michael Cole, all sitting at one table. Todd Grisham and Matt Striker were used to call the tag title match for the DVD.”

Working with King & Cole was a highlight for you I’m sure right?

1. C.M. Punk won the Money in the Bank match for the second year in a row in 14:24, over Fit Finlay, Mark Henry, Kofi Kingston, MVP, Shelton Benjamin, Christian and Kane. The guys expected to provide the high flying, Kingston and Benjamin, both delivered. Christian, with all the experience in these type of matches, likely provided some of the creative ideas. 

They did a series of dives, including Finlay doing his first tope in years, on Kane. Christian did a Silver King dive on Finlay and Kane. Punk and Kingston then did a double tope spot. Benjamin then climbed up to the top rung of a ladder on the floor and did a somersault dive on everyone. Lucky there was all that humanity to catch him because his body was completely out of control. 

The finish saw Christian and Kane climbing. Kane was supposed to choke slam Christian off the ladder, but it came off as more of a shove. Punk then was climbing and kicked Kane off and grabbed the briefcase. Finish came without that much of a build. Far from the best Money in the Bank, but really good. ***¾”

Was this the company trying to get Punk right again?

Kid Rock played for about 15 minutes before the Divas Battle Royal…

2. Santino Marella, dressed in drag, won the Divas Battle Royal to become Miss Wrestlemania and claimed he was Santino’s twin sister, Santina Marella, in 5:57. The 24 other women were Kelly Kelly, Layla, Jillian Hall, Nikki & Brie Bella, Michelle McCool, Beth Phoenix, Rosa Mendes, Maria, Melina, Eve Torres, Katie Lea Burchill, Gail Kim, Alicia Fox, Maryse, Mickie James, Natalya and Tiffany as regulars and one-time returning guests Victoria, Sunny, Joy Giovanni, Jackie Gayda, Torrie Wilson and Molly Holly. This was beyond lame and they hung the announcers out to dry. It was clear Marella was in the match and they were ordered to play dumb, not mentioning anything until the finish and only a few were left, and then having to pretend it was a woman they didn’t recognize until after he won and started talking. My gut is the concept of this match bringing back women from the past fell apart. 

Marella stayed out of everyone’s way the entire match, and when Phoenix and Melina were fighting near the ropes, he eliminated both. He then did a dance around the ring. The crowd got off on him in drag but this really sucked on television. DUD

JR - chat me up about this. How did it feel being put in that position with Marella? Was this even worth it?

“Chris Jericho won a handicap match over Ricky Steamboat & Roddy Piper & Jimmy Snuka in 8:53. At one point during the week it was scheduled to be a gauntlet match instead of a handicap match. The first few minutes were terrible, because Snuka could barely move, and poor Piper wearing a tight T-shirt because of whatever problem he has with his stomach looks like he’s 280 pounds. Snuka couldn’t do anything, but Piper tried. Jericho eliminated Snuka in 3:40 with the Walls of Jericho. He pinned Piper with an enzuigiri in 4:40. He then did a singles match with Steamboat, which had to be a thrill since Steamboat was Jericho’s favorite wrestler as a kid. Steamboat looked great for being 56 and not having wrestled since 1994. 

It was probably only sad to people who actually saw Steamboat in his peak, because it was a guy who never got tired and never missed a spot, and here, well, he got tired and missed a few spots. Jericho pinned him after a codebreaker.”

Snuka & Piper being sad was one thing - but man Steamboat getting in there - to be able to do this 15 years later - it was a moment was it not?

“Flair then jumped in and started throwing chops at Jericho, which got the biggest reaction by far of anything on the show up to this point. But Jericho turned the tables on Flair with a backdrop and a codebreaker, laying him out. 

Jericho then turned his attention to Mickey Rourke, who was sitting at ringside with Frank Shamrock. As expected, after much taunting to build it up, Rourke got in the ring. Rourke, who boxed professionally when he was younger, went into a boxing stance and threw a jab. 

Jericho went into a boxing stance and Rourke threw a left that looked terrible and Jericho went down. Rourke didn’t get much of a reaction and people didn’t boo the knockout as bad as it looked, but did groan. The Rourke stuff didn’t get nearly the post-show media reaction one would have thought. The fact Rourke never appeared on Raw to build the feud meant most really didn’t care. 

It ended up backwards, because Steamboat and Flair, far more popular than Rourke, were used to set up Rourke’s heat, which he didn’t have much of. **”

This just didn’t work with Rourke did it? It was better off with not being physical with him right?

“Matt Hardy pinned Jeff Hardy in an Extreme rules match in 13:13. They pushed that Matt was the one who set fire to Jeff’s trailer and killed his dog in both the video package, and it was talked about in the commentary for the match. I question whether that worked, because it took the issue from maybe possibly something believable to something that was so obviously full of shit. Matt didn’t get anywhere near the level of reaction as a pushed heel than he would get as a non-pushed face at a house show. 

Jeff also wasn’t over anywhere close to what he’d been before the feud started, even though Jim Ross tried to push it like no rock star before 70,000 fans got any bigger of a reaction. There was very little heat for the match itself, only pops when they’d do weapon spots. There were two ladders set up side-by-side. Jeff climbed to the top of an eight-footer, and then vaulted over the ten-footer next to it and Matt moved while Jeff crashed on his ass, missing a legdrop. Matt then put Jeff’s head inside a chair and used a twist of fate, and got the three. The finish looked great. ***¼”

Matt going over was the hope it would launch him to another level. Why didn’t it happen? Was this a miss?

“Rey Mysterio pinned JBL in :21 to win the IC title. JBL attacked Mysterio before the bell, and demanded the bell be sounded. The ref checked with Mysterio if he was ready to start the match, or call it off. Mysterio said to start it, and then took over with a dropkick, a 619 and a splash off the top for the pin. After the match, JBL looked at the crowd, said, “I Quit,” and that was his retirement. He did it in a total heel way, so as not to get any crowd emotion behind it. So even though it was true, I don’t think most in the crowd bought it.”

This was just the perfect send off for JBL wasn’t it?

“Undertaker pinned Shawn Michaels in 30:41. Lots of dueling chants, and the crowd was standing for much of the match. Undertaker got the biggest reaction on the show except for Austin. 

There was a great series of big moves and reverses, ending with Undertaker locking in the gogoplata, but Michaels became the first person to escape, making the ropes. 

Undertaker missed a legdrop on the apron and fell to the floor. Michaels went to the top rope and went for a moonsault to the floor, but Undertaker moved and Michaels crashed on the mats. Undertaker then went for his big running dive over the top, but Michaels moved. They had a catcher planted at ringside under the guise of a camera man, who had to hold the camera, drop it and then catch him. He didn’t quite do it and Undertaker was landing straight down on his head with the fall barely broken. 

JR - when you see this happen - this is almost like Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle in Seattle - what could’ve been here?

Michaels went for the superkick, but Undertaker moved, and choke slammed Michaels for a near fall. Undertaker’s facials at Michaels kicking out of his near falls were great. Michaels went for a superkick and it was blocked. Undertaker went for a choke slam and it was blocked. Michaels hit the superkick but Undertaker kicked out. Undertaker tried a last ride but Michaels turned it into a sunset flip for a near fall. 

Undertaker then used the last ride but Michaels kicked out. Undertaker went to the top rope to do Michaels’ elbow drop, but Michaels over. Undertaker threw Michaels over the top, but he did a skin the cut move but was caught on the way in by Undertaker, who tombstoned him, but Michaels kicked out. 

People were going nuts. Undertaker went for another tombstone but Michaels countered with a DDT. That spot was botched. Michaels used an elbow off the top and then a superkick, but Undertaker kicked out again. They traded punches and chops before Michaels came off the top with a moonsault block, but Undertaker caught him in mid-air, and then dropped him again with a tombstone piledriver and this time Michaels didn’t kick out. The match had super heat and their sense of making every move mean something was really spectacular. ****¾ ”

JR - how could anyone top this match?

Where do you rank this in your favorite WrestleMania matches?

“John Cena won the World title over champion Edge and Big Show in 14:42. Cena came out with an Eminem ring entrance with it looked like 200 indie wrestlers dressed like Cena lining up. 

Cena got Show up on his shoulder and moved to the ropes to get Edge on top of show. It was a great visual for the split second, and Edge fell off. Cena gave the Attitude Adjustment to Show, then gave it to Edge and then pinned Show. They pulled out more things than they would have in a normal show, but Show and Cena are nothing special when they are in together. ***¼ ”

World class guys - just not the best spot to be in - even if Cena’s entrance is one of the most iconic. How different is this show structure if WrestleMania was two days back then?

“Next came the Hall of Fame introductions. Really, nobody got a reaction except for Steamboat and Austin. Not even Kevin Von Erich, but he was more Dallas and it really was 26 years ago when he was at his peak, and really The Funks were big in Houston in the 70s. It’s a completely different audience even though Terry had runs on the national stage during the boom period. Austin drove an ATV to the ring, around the ring, drank some beer, and the crowd loved it. Right before he left, Austin went to the broadcast table and did a beer toast with Jim Ross, who was probably his closest friend in the company for all those years.”

That had to be a magical moment for you didn’t it JR?

“HHH pinned Randy Orton in 23:33 to retain the WWE title. They told a story early establishing Scott Armstrong warning HHH about being disqualified because it would cost him the title. 

They ended up outside the ring, standing on the English language table. You knew that one wasn’t breaking. HHH set up a pedigree on the table, but Orton backdropped out and HHH landed on the Spanish announcers table, that didn’t break. That looked like it hurt. Orton used a DDT on the floor. The finish saw Orton throw HHH into Armstrong. 

Orton then hit the RKO, but there was no ref to count. Orton went outside the ring and picked up the sledge hammer. However, after he was coming through the ropes, HHH punted him. With Armstrong still down, HHH hit Orton with the sledge hammer and then used a pedigree, and Armstrong recovered to count the fall. Kind of weird how everyone Orton punted would be out a few weeks, but Orton took both a punt and a sledge hammer shot and was back on TV without a scratch the next day. **½ ”

This is considered one of the more lackluster main events in WrestleMania history - what say you?

Would you have booked any match differently than how it was?

“The storyline acknowledgment of HHH as a member of the McMahon family, even though everyone knew, seems to have cast him in a different light with the audience. Whether this was just the audience in Houston, the fans who traveled from all those countries for the weekend, which also booed John Cena both nights more than Cena has gotten booed in a while(but at least they reacted to him like he was a superstar), or something more serious will probably be better determined in a few weeks. 

Another problem is the final angle in HHH vs. Orton involved the McMahons joining in and brawling with DiBiase & Rhodes. With the strong storyline, people expected a brawl instead of a normal wrestling match. And everyone was sure Vince & Shane were going to interfere, so the heat wasn’t going to pick up that big until they did. Instead, they didn’t, even though during certain spots with near falls, a lot of the crowd was looking at the entrance ramp expecting a run-in.”

What say you JR?

“Aside from Undertaker and Michaels, it appeared the highlight both live, and in many ways on television, was seeing Steve Austin ride to the ring, guzzle some beer, and leave, possibly for the last time. It was by no means a bad show, but it getting a mixed response whether it delivered to the level of its hype. The show wasn’t nearly as good as No Way Out.

Part of the problem was the disjointed hype, as lack of a cohesive battle plan for the show, or if there was one, it constantly being changed, made the only real strong point of the build the name “Wrestlemania.” That’s all well and good for selling the show, and getting a lot of people, most of whom bought tickets and made travel plans before any matches were announced, to attend.”

Where would you rank WrestleMania 25 out of all the ones that you've called?