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CloneWars: Darth Anakin's Great Debate! (Patreon)

Published:
2021-03-12 17:00:00
Imported:
2021-03

Content

Chris brought up a point several times that keeps raising not only eye brows, but also our voices. According to Chris, liking Anakin and liking Darth Vader are two different things. In one of our latest discussions, he went as far as to say that Anakin and Darth Vader are two different characters. Do you agree? Why or why not? Let us know so we can give this rest! lol

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Comments

DarthCaedus

You can’t see one without the other. Everything that makes Vader was seeded in Anakin. But a lot of that doesn’t come into play until later in Clone Wars, so don’t stress it yet.

Arsalan

Anakin is a lost child trying to grow up, trying to belong somewhere good, and dealing with falling in love without any guidance. Darth Vader is a grown up who has known love, and the pain that comes with it. He also knows there is no such thing as good and evil: there is just power. So, in a sense, they are two characters.

Unstablebeast

Anakin and Vader are the same person different stages of his character yes, but not 2 different people. Now I can understand liking Vader but not anakin before watching all of the amazing show that is clone wars, because again it's a different stage in his character. Like how some people love early sasuke but hate later sasuke, it's still sasuke

MOB12

Yes they are. For the most part.

Daniel Sessions

They're two different characters, because every single time Darth talks about Anakin It's always in the third person. If it's around people who know the truth, he always says things along the line of "Anakin Skywalker was weak and I destroyed him" it is pretty much a split personality

Eline Cote

They are the same character, every doubt and feeling that started with Anakin went to the extreme with Vader. I love this character my second favorite after Ahsoka.

Jack Maltbie

I think you can count them as two different characters, but they essentially are the same person. When he becomes Vader there is no Anakin Skywalker, as they say over and over. I personally like both Anakin and Vader, especially Clone Wars Anakin.

Re_Cordy

Same character in 2 different stages of life. Mind you Anakin was wildin out with the stuff he said to Padme when they met again. That's the guy you can see turn into Vader later on

Joseph Sanchez

Same character but different person, if that makes sense. You can like Anakin without liking Vader, and vice versa, or you can be like me and like both of them.

BlackAirForcesEnergy

You can link the two together with the dialogue exchange between Luke and Vader, when Luke says "There is conflict in you. I can see it." and Vader responds "There is no conflict". Annie and Vader's arcs are all about the conflict of good and evil within him. He turns dark because he is afraid to lose his wife, his at the time unborn child, and his master. So he seeks what he believes to be absolute power - darkness. In darkness, he was promised to so powerful he could keep others from dying, and surpass the need for his master (the Jedi) but in the end betrayal and manipulation by Palpatine cost him everything. So he "ends the conflict" in him by going full Vader. But Luke reveals to Vader that there is still conflict within him. Vader still has love. His love for his family, his son Luke. When Vader sees his son getting killed by Palpatine he intervenes and the light returns within him in an act of selfless love. Vader's last words were "tell your sister you were right." as in he still had conflict within him. The darkness had not fully taken him and he was able to overcome. In summary - Vader and Anakin's story is about inner conflict, darkness and light. And it's in this conflict that the two are one and the same.

Lord Madara

You cant compare Vader to a 19 year old version of himself, thats Character development for you it would be boring if Anakin was perfect and was a badass who is perfect at everything. Anakin’s character development is far better than even Luke’s.

Rekway

Turning to the dark side is like rolling a marble up a double-sided incline. It faces a lot of resistance from the light, from the teachings, from the individuals own morality. But given enough of a push, it makes it over the fulcrum and accelerates quickly and deeply into the dark, with nobody on the other side who understands that darkness who is willing to push it back the other way. This is my idea of the light/dark struggle, and why Vader is a very different person from Anakin.

Joshua Krienke

There is no Vader without Anakin. You’ll understand once you finish clone wars.

Anonymous

They are the same person physically. But mentally they are two different people. When Anakin became Vader he was a dark shadow to the man he once was. More ruthless and frightening and sinister. But deep down the good was still there. Anakin Skywalker was still in him deep down. It just takes time to for a certain individual to turn from what people like Obi-wan refer to as a brother and great friend to one of the most ruthless beings in the galaxy. It is a gradual change that you are able to see in the show that is not greatly shown in the movies because they didn't give it the best amount of time. The clone wars goes on for three years so that is perfect timing for him to mistrust the Jedi order and see things that they do that are called into question. Also, ever since Anakin first got into the Jedi order, Palpatine or the emperor or Darth Sidious, whatever you want to call him, has been getting close to Anakin, seeing him as a worthy candidate for an apprentice and manipulating him and everybody else during the 10 year gap between "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones" to be able to monitor him in his training as a Jedi and knowing how powerful he is. He has a lot of good reasons to mistrust the Jedi order over time and you will see why. He is a good and compassionate person and sees everyone especially the clones as people. The reason why the clones like him so much is because he is able to relate to them in the fact that he sees it as a form of slavery in what is happening to them. Knowing no other purpose but to be created for war. He would know because he use to be a slave himself. Another thing you have to remember is that Anakin's destiny is not as straight forward as you would think it is. The road to evil is paved with good intentions. Remember the talk about him being the "Chosen one" , the one who will destroy the Sith and bring the force into balance? It is the truth. The prophecy of the chosen one by the Jedi is very specific because it talks of a being born of no father. Anakin never had a biological father. That is why it was so easy for Palpatine to establish himself in that role in Anakin's life. That is the role that Obi-wan should have filled, but he trained Anakin not out of belief that he is the chosen one but because he does it out of duty which is good and all but isn't what Anakin needed, he needed a proper father figure. The reason why dual in the phantom menace is called "dual of the fates" is because if Qui-Gon Jinn survived the fight between him, Obi-wan and Darth Maul then he would be the one to train Anakin and his fate would be forever changed from the one we have seen. But remember that hope sometimes comes in forms not usually thought of. Sure attachment to Padme and the fear of losing her is what turned him to the dark side. But attachment is also what redeems him and brings him back to the light something that was thought impossible by Obi-wan and Yoda. When he saved his son, it was a selfless act. Not about what is good or bad or what does the force tell me to do. It is just the moment of do or do not and he sacrificed his own life to save his son. Luke was the catalyst that saved Vader from darkness in order to fulfill his duty. And before you ask why Palpatine is still alive in "The Rise of Skywalker", it is because somehow brought his soul back into a clone body of himself and was trying to bring back the Sith from extinction. He died in "Return of the Jedi" when Anakin/Vader threw him down that endless abyss. The destiny of the chosen one is to bring the force back into balance, not to preserve it. That task is for future generations to handle. The Clone Wars Tv show brings up topics that reinforces the prequels and gives time to the proper character development that was needed for Anakin that the prequels couldn't properly do.

Anonymous

I think there are quite a few arguments to be made here the foremost being that Anakin as a character that is to say everything he is was created after Vader was made which means that even if the story tells us that these two characters are the same person they don't act as if they are and the "finished product" was presented to us first.

Matthew Bankston

Chris is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! Anankin Skywalker and Darth Vader are 2 different characters. Vader is a broken, scarred, grief stricken, traumatized, and trapped version of Anakin Skywalker. Think about it, this man committed atrocities to save the woman he loved, then in a fit of rage he force choked her causing her death. Now he's stuck in a cumbersome suit that actually causes him pain (look it up, its true) and he has no choice to be the Emperor's apprentice. And if you read the novels and comics, on more than one occasion the Emperor has tested Vader's worth by putting him against other potential apprentice to see who lives and who dies. One comic series in particular was released in 2016 by Marvel called "Star Wars: Vader Down" and also "Star Wars: Darth Vader". One of the coldest and telling lines in the comic is in issue 24 where he describes facing a vision of himself as Anakin Skywalker that he then kills. He talks to old self stating "You were a child...I am well accustomed to killing children". As you guys continue to watch Clone Wars you'll see all the things Anakin values, but keep in mind in the end he will destroy it all with his own hands.

Anonymous

Same person. I view Vader as Anakin. Thats who he was born as and died as. Vader is like a codename. Its his supervillian name. But at the end of the day hes just anakin.

Quinton Campbell

Well, are we the same ppl from 15 years ago? When you think about it like that lol

Matthew Cronin

You can think of it either way. He eventually becomes Anakin again anyways

Anonymous

Same character, many of the same traits throughout, two identities/personas. Anakin is a character of extremes, so changes in his ideals over time stretch towards the middle from one extreme and then snap suddenly to the other extreme. It makes it seem like he's entirely different, but he's just a complicated guy.

Jonas

I mean I get where Chris is coming from, but I think that mentally he just wants to separate these two portrayals of Anakin/Vader because they are wildly different in how well made they are. They are the same dude just with different circumstances and motivations, but while Anakin is a mess in its protrayal, dialogue and in general how the plot made him Vader, the aftermath was an amazing villain that everyone enjoyed. I do believe if Anakin was done better in the prequels (adding in a more concise direction and plot to the movies themselves lol) he wouldn't be saying these things 😄. But the situation is as it is so idk whatever floats peoples boats I guess 😃

Mason Dragneel

I agree with Chris cause Vader says that he’s killed Anakin

Daniel R

Anakin and the prequel story reinforces what's already a strong story but makes it stronger. It's no coincidence that the fan support for the Prequel Trilogy has been getting stronger over time. Almost like fine wine, especially for those fans who were on the right side of history since the beginning. How else can someone explain why the Prequels are way more popular nowadays--coincidentally after the Disney films came out. Who's right and who's wrong? Seems to me like Star Wars fans are coming around on the prequels because the sequels were garbage with no story or direction and they made it up as they went along. The Prequels get stronger on rewatches because of the actual care and details within the movies that are expanded on in Clone Wars making the entire story the strongest part of Star Wars as a whole.

Kamina 1

You guys should make this a poll. I'm curious about the results. SN: To answer your question i believe metaphorically a point can be made that Anakin, and Vader are different characters. But literally? It is the same person guys lol. My mind wraps both together into one person at different points in his life. I love Anakin. Therefore i love Vader. I love Vader. Therefore i love Anakin. The entirety of one individuals characterization. He's an extremely complicated man. Great topic normies.

SuperCookieGaming

Yes and also no. They are the same physical person and should be treated as such. However Anakin went through such a traumatic event in his life that he is forever a changed person. He is corrupted by the dark side and his thoughts and motivations have changed. he treats other much differently than before. So in that respect they are different characters. But since they are the same person it can, and probably should, be viewed as character development. In the end it is the original anakin that Luke gets to expose and how the light finally beat the dark. Because of that one fact alone they are the same person. If Vader was never redeemed i could see the argument that he has changed to much to be called anakin. And you will see in clone wars and rebels the relationship between vader and anakin be fleshed out.

Edwin Ayala
>>55455910

*Mortis arc Anakin climbs to your window*: “I heard you were talking shit about me”

Zenanarch

the question really is, is anakin from clone wars the same anakin from ep3

_ FlusterCluck

I think to a degree that if you like Anakin than you like earth Vader, I don’t think they’re two different characters....I think where before Anakin was kinda all over the place and really didn’t have too much direction, Darth Vader is Anakin but toned down like 5% and now we know his M.O

kong kong

You can definetly like either seperately. I like both

Anonymous

He definitely has a point but that's like saying: -Episode 1 Walter white is a different character than final season Walter - Episode 1 Gon is a different character than Chimera Ant Gon - Air nomad Aang is a different character than old Avatar Aang

Anonymous

Same Person, different stages of their lives.

Anonymous

This is the dumbest debate I’ve ever heard. It’s like saying why don’t you guys react to game of thrones because those people who react to it about 5 years ago was not you guys.

Anonymous

Physically they are the same person but mentally they are two different people. Kinda like that movie split. Vader is like another persona completely than Anakin. In the new movies kylo is kind of a good example. Kylo ren wanted to be some sith guy and control the galaxy but Ben solo wanted to be on all that peaceful good guy stuff. In the original movies obi wan talked about it, how Anakin had been corrupted by the dark side and when he turned he ceased to be Anakin and became Darth Vader ya know an entire different persona.

Big Mike

Vader killed Anakin... 2 different characters separated by one of the greatest character arcs ever

Anonymous

Chris is right

Thanatos

Same Character, Different People

Hemry64

Chris is right on this for sure! While Anikin is technically Vader, you can think of Vader as another persona almost. Vader is what's left of Anikin after Mustafar, and in turn, develops into his own being. At times Anikin may slip through and you can see it in how he talks.

Anonymous
>>55472819

So Chris never graduated high schools because that’s over more than a decade ago and it was a different person than. That what your trying to say. How are they not the same person.

luke nwagbara

darth vader and anakin are 2 different people so much so that if time stuff were to happen anakin would fight vader with all he had because he would "never" do what vader did

kiwithesith

If you look at it from his perspective, he has not had a good life, obviously. Everything he loved either died of left him. He was told he was the chosen one since a young age and lived up to it, but still had some trouble getting the trust and rank he thought he deserved. He was getting desperate at the end. Not getting the help he needed from the Jedi council and just waiting for someone to help him save Padmé. Remember that Qui Gon Jinn was not the only one who understood his power, but Darth Sidious as well. He was waiting for the right time to strike a blow, not only to the Jedi but also to the light side of Anakin. After that, Anakin was gone. Darth Vader and Anakin are two different characters, but there are some specs of Anakin left in Vader. Just as there also were some Vader in Anakin. Just watch Clone Wars and you'll see it too.

Rahsaan

Yes and No. Anakin is able to come back in the end so he was never truly dead. Vader is all of the worst traits of Anakin. It's not hard to become a monster in pursuit of something. Anakin has friends and comrades...Vader ain't chilling with nobody.

Jjop017

I agree that it is possible to like Darth Vader, but dislike Anakin Skywalker or visa-versa, but I still think they are the same character. Everything that happened to Anakin helped shape him into Darth Vader.

Anonymous

I think Chris is right, because that's what George was going for. Anakin and Luke are essentially the same character: both talented pilots, quick learners, both have prior attachments before becoming Jedi and can both fit the description for this "Chosen One." (Even though Anakin is the Chosen One.) The difference is Anakin had no one who can guide him to the light. He repeatably goes to Obi-Wan and Yoda with his troubles, but they can only council him in letting go. They think that worked for them and for everyone they've taught, why shouldn't it work for him; but Anakin can't. That's why he becomes a hypocrite: he recites the same Jargon that he is taught, but doesn't know how to apply it in his life. Top it off with hiding a marriage and constantly feeling isolated because the way you feel is frowned upon by your friends and peers, it's a wonder Anakin doesn't explode every other week. Eventually, Palpatine starts answering the questions Anakin has and exploits his attachments to turn him against the Jedi for "holding him back." (Or just not being equiped to help him) Palpatine exposes himself as a Sith and Mace Windu takes a team to arrest Palps, but after their fight decides to kill him. Anakin, who is always told that he needs to follow the Jedi code, is upset that Mace is disregarding it in that moment too. Palps uses Mace's hypocracy in that moment in conjunction with the Jedi's failure to teach him how to deal with his emotions to turn him against the Jedi. Palps may have dubbed him Vader, but in the following Days, Anakin would commit atrocities that he can't live with. He fights off death on Mustafar to return to Padme, only to find out he killed the last thing he cared about. To survive Anakin had to die, and that only left Vader. Periodically throughout the saga, we see Vader fade away and Anakin return, but Vader quickly takes back control when Anakin has to confront what he's done. Luke also lacked a proper guide. Obi-Wan knew only to protect him until he was old enough to challenge the Empire, and Yoda was still scared of what Anakin and his attachments became. As a result, Luke was exploited by Vader to face him on Bespin and again on Death Star II when Vader threatens to turn Leia. Luke lashes out much like Anakin would and cut off Vader's arm, but Luke had a realization that Anakin never had. Luke upon seeing Vader's robot hand and then his own realized he was becoming just like his father and chose to turn away from the Dark side. This choice allowed Anakin to surface again just in time to see Palps killing Luke and allows him to intervene and save his son. Anakin saving his son allowed him to face the atrocities that he commited and preserve himself in the force. (Or apparently from a one second lession from force ghost Obi-Wan :P) So in that regard, I agree that they are different characters. I also think that is why we see Episode 3 Anakin as a Force Ghost, because that was what Anakin last looked like before Vader took over his body.

Anonymous
>>55485274

Wow, that ended up being a lot longer than I intended, lol.

Mario Carranza

Yes from a lore perspective when you have to account for WHAT THE FORCE IS AND WHAT IT DOES TO PEOPLE, then yes. Anakin and Vader are two different characters.

Manny D.

Yes

Michael Diaz

Anakin and Vader are the same person but different characters.

MojoJojoGojo

I remember those days watched 1,2,3 with my grandparents in theaters. But they introduced 4,5,6 to me before prequels ever were a thing.... BUT anyways I agree with Chris for sure.

SpoRTan

i mean yh as soon as he becomes Darth Vader he is no longer anakin until episode 6 where luke brings him back, George said it, Filoni...

DarthMuppet

I kind of look at Anakin like the yin & yang sign. It’s 1 BUT the split In Anakin is exactly that. 2 sides that are as far opposing as possible and yet 1 in the same.

Saitama

Yes. Anakin and Vader are two different people, Even according to lore. That's why Obi Wan said Vader "killed" Anakin...having said that, Chris is kinda blinded by his hatred of the prequels, So I feel like that's heavily influencing him.

Screcy

You guys just need to finish Star Wars the Clone Wars. If we talk about movies only. Then yeah, the transition is very drastic but the show makes it more believable, making it impossible (in my opinion) to love one but not the other.

Daniel R
>>55525640

I mean Chris did claim on camera that he couldn't "follow" the Phantom Menace while the two noob girls were following it just fine. Just seems like someone wanting others to validate his negative feelings so he doesn't seem alone.

Arsalan
>>55526796

clone wars is overrated, its like the yamcha of animes

Anonymous

I'd have to agree. Vader and Anakin are almost entirely seperate. I know that Vader is Anakin, but most of the time I just block Anakin out of my mind. And I was 3 when Phantom Menace came out, so I'm not just trying to justify nostalgia. The prequels were my shit growing up... and then I grew up lol.

Anonymous

I mean obviously you can like one and not the other. They were played by different actors. They look and act nothing alike. It's even possible to like live-action Anakin and hate the cartoon version or vice versa, again, being played and voiced by different actors, and written by different people. It's very subjective whether you buy the transition and can think of them as part of the same character arc or not, with or without the cartoons included. Chris is not wrong, he's just an asshole. It is kind of ruining your Clone Wars reactions to have someone with such an irrational hatred of the Anakin character on the couch. It's going to be a very a long series for someone who hates Anakin for whatever reason, let me warn you now.

Thee Chronicle

I just want to know where is the Solo! Reaction. I hope you haven't skipped it. Alongside rogue one it's one of the better recent era made star wars movies

My Toasty Toast

Late to the party but Vader is a very different psyche than Anakin. Even if they’re the same person there’s enough of a divide to establish a difference between Anakin and Vader

Darth Skhorrn

Yes, they are two different characters. Many different forms of media have illustrated this point, it is canon. I agree with Chris that they are different people; however, I'm in the opposite boat from him in terms of which one I like. Anakin is far more interesting to me than Vader. A good man who does the wrong thing for the right reason is just more compelling than someone who is just plain bad. Vader doesn't have any dimension to him, he's just a tall henchman who's evil for the sake of being evil. At least Anakin has layers. He wants to do the right thing, but his worldview is altered and so is his perception as to what the right thing is. His heart's desire is to protect the people he loves and the galaxy at large; but his views shift when he sees problems in the Order he was raised to believe in. As someone who grew up in church and whose views on religion and God have shifted since childhood, I find Anakin's disillusion to the Jedi very relatable.

Anonymous

I’m a comic book reader, Vader mentally fought Anakin on Mustafar and won. Also when he tried to save Padme in the 2017 Comic (Before a new Hope) he found this dead Force version of her which said “Anakin Skywalker is dead” and later was kicked out the Force Dimension by the Force and when he tried going back in he seen this illuminated version of Luke which he couldn’t sort out who it was as it blinded him. Point being The only thing Vader and Anakin have in common is their love for Padme. Anakin Skywalker Truly died on Mustafar although he was brought back from the dead in episode 6. (All Canon btw)