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Billy West Kinda Funny Podcast Update (Patreon)

Published:
2021-06-18 01:20:22
Imported:
2022-10

Content

Hey, y’all--

Wanted to drop a quick note about today’s Billy West podcast.

If you missed the live recording, the episode went 0 to 100 real quick covering Billy’s work on Space Jam and Futurama before jumping into serious topics like him being abused as a child, his alcoholism, and his autism.

I love that we can tackle that serious stuff. The Kinda Funny Podcast is meant to be a train of thought that can range from the serious to the mundane to the comedic.

However, in the discussion, Billy used some language that we’re not comfortable with. Obviously, he can say whatever he wants, but in the end, it’s our show and even though we weren’t the ones using the terms and we tried correcting it on-air, it living on our channel would still give it a platform. We don’t want to do that, so we’re cutting it out for the YouTube version.

This also means that the live archive has been privatized. We know from your feedback that you hate when we do that without explanation, so here I am! See, we’re learning!

Hope you understand; we’re trying to build the Internet we want to see.

Greg

Comments

Anonymous

tbf ross i can see where youre coming from, as i thoughly enjoy BW's stuff, but as i also missed the live and see this post with the team being uncomfortable, and the fact they had tried to "correct it on air" definately makes it feel as though BW crossed some lines that the team doesnt feel comfortable owning and sharing AS KF content. i wouldnt exactly say Danny was 'attacking' you, whilst the swear is a lil bit unneeded, thats just my POV so hopefully that clears the air a bit

Anonymous
>>62093356

Thank you but it’s just that I’ve been one of the silent majority for a while here and one of the first times I speak out about something just because I don’t agree I get harsh words thrown at me for no reason. It makes me feel like I can’t speak about anything unless I agree 100% with everyone else. I’m not saying that’s how it is, it’s just how it’s seeming right now

Anonymous

The fact that there are people talking about "censorship" or something you "disagree with" relative to language you don't want being said on your show (I mean, take a guess guys, it can only be one of a few things--misogynistic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist) means that we still have not weeded out the Colin acolytes from this community. I don't know how many "this is an inclusive space for people of all races, sexual orientations, genders, and disabilities where we don't mock anyone, punch down, or use incendiary speech as jokes" lectures they need to give until people stop acting like they have an obligation to air hate speech on their shows and social media platforms. Enough. If you lack empathy to that degree, what are you doing here?

Anonymous
>>62094801

"Colin acolytes" lol. I didn't watch until last year so I know nothing about him but you need to realize that you're being just as toxic as the people you're putting down. Talking about lacking empathy right after insulting a group within the community

Corey Scott

What if... and heres a crazy suggestion.. what if we all stopped yelling at each other in the comments. Makes everyone look like an asshole.

Anonymous
>>62094801

Zachary, if you haven't been here that long then please acknowledge you simply do not know what you are talking about. You weren't here in 2017 when this stuff went down. It was ugly. There is a large group of gamers who are absolutely toxic and have no issue putting down women, people of color, people with disabilities, people who are trans or other queer identities, etc. It's deeply upsetting to see it still exist in our community. Anyone who is not actively opposed to hate speech against marginalized groups is complicit in its existence. Kinda Funny had a member who was like that, and we have worked for a long time to tell people who think that way, who think that anything and everything should be allowed to be said within the confines of an accepting community and enforcing any rules to protect the wellbeing of oppressed people is "censorship" or not accepting "opinions other than your own" that they cannot be here if they behave that way and preach that message. You should consider where you stand on airing hate speech and act accordingly.

Anonymous
>>62104283

We can't stop yelling at each other in the comments until the people who want to promote hate speech are gone. They deserve to be called out with fervor until they leave, and it is our moral obligation to do so.

Corey Scott
>>62104283

I get you, Im with you. Were on the same page, playing for the same team. But the sheer aggression drives everyone away, even the people you want. Like me for instance. I am going to leave this conversation because I dont like being talked down to by somebody just beacuse I said chill out.

Anonymous
>>62104283

I personally agree with what the KF team are doing in this situation, but I can also understand others being confused because they don’t know the content being left out (which is inevitable and necessary). I think expressing confusion or concern is different from promoting hate speech. Also, let’s try to reflect the same values we are trying to protect and show empathy and understanding to those who may not have intimate knowledge of a situation or all the baggage behind it. Have a great day!

Minya

Kinda disappointing to hear but your show at the end of the day. Is it just the youtube version being censored or will this effect the audio versions as well for those that are Silver or higher?

Dan Careaga

Welcome to "When FOMO goes wrong" Edit: "Entitled FOMO"

Anonymous

I’m extremely uncomfortable with the idea of correcting someone’s speech IRL. Gives me anxiety just thinking about it. So I’m jealous and proud you were at least attempting it as it happened. And yeah I understand the people who are curious over what he said. I am too! That’s a natural thing. But this isn’t a NEWS show. So I don’t think it makes sense to whine about it. It’s be like wondering why things in “the bachelor” were edited out.

Anonymous

Hey Kinda Funny, this thread highlights why I don't engage much anymore. The stance you've taken, and the way you've gone about it, encourages the most insufferable people to feel above reproach because they're doing it "for the right reasons." I'm too old and too experienced to constantly be talked down to by video game pundits and a childish community full of wannabe dictators. You love endlessly calling out "shitty" people on the other side. Call it out on your own side too or stop preaching. There's very few things worse than racism, but hypocrisy is one of them.

Anonymous
>>62120628

Hypocrisy is worse than racism? You're probably not the target audience for Kinda Funny.

Anonymous
>>62120628

I've been here since Podcast Beyond episode #1. I'm also a minority and I've experienced racism in my life plenty of times. Instead of engaging me and finding out why I believe what I do, you've decided that I don't belong. Thank you for highlighting exactly what I was talking about. Sorry, but I do not run from bullies.

Anonymous
>>62120628

No, I'm saying that the way they're approaching things is having a detrimental impact on their community and is hypocritical in nature. We've all done hypocritical things in our life. That doesn't mean we're hypocrites. But at some point the amount of hypocrisy is too much. You become unprincipled and that's when tribalism and hypocrisy take over. And yes, in my view, being unprincipled is worse than racism in its most common form which stems from ignorance and fear as opposed to hatred. So no, I don't think the KF crew is worse than racists but I'm seeing an amount of hypocrisy and tribalism that concerns me from a group I've been supporting for well over a decade.

Anonymous
>>62120628

I think the community has been the best it's ever been recently. Maybe it's just totally different from before. It's a much more inclusive community. Unless someone is a right winger I don't see how the community changes have been negative.

Anonymous
>>62120628

I'm not a right winger but you just told me I probably don't belong. You also claim that it's more inclusive unless you're a right winger, which is 50% of the country. So it's more inclusive than ever except for half of all people. You're still highlighting exactly what I'm talking about. This is tribalism. This is toxic. I don't care if the KF crew and the entire community tell me I'm wrong, I will not be gaslit into thinking this is righteous.

Anonymous
>>62094801

Sorry guys, didn't realize I needed to lurk for three more years before I could comment! Thank God this public servant told me! Fuck online communities and their gatekeeping, I'm out. Later "best friends"

Anonymous
>>62104283

Jorge, I don't think the people who are expressing confusion are the same as the people calling a channel freely choosing to control their content "censorship" or not handling a "different opinion." We can't get anywhere with people who view unacceptable speech as acceptable. If they don't trust the team to make that call, it's their own problem.

Anonymous
>>62120628

If you think right wing political views should make someone a protected class, I think you are doing the right thing by leaving this community. That is not even close to the same thing as being black, a woman, being gay, trans, disabled, or anything of the numerous other characteristics that people cannot change about themselves and are oppressed for. This is an inclusive community for people of all backgrounds, but if your personal views are centered around oppression of others, which all right-wing views in the context of the United States and basically all of global capitalism are, then no you simply do not belong. Go talk to the edgelords who want to make misogynistic jokes together and pat themselves on the back for using their "free speech."

Anonymous

Why is this so hard for people to understand? I was so proud of the team taking such a strong stance last year. Either you are kind to people of all marginalized identities, meaning you do not call "censorship" or "different opinion" when you see people stand up for them, or you are not welcome. Feel free to sort yourselves out.

Corey Scott
>>62104283

I was in the goddamn live chat of the show. Theyre cutting out maybe three minutes of an autistic 70 year old man who has seem more shit than most of us ever will saying something out of line. You are screaming at people for what was barely an offensive thing. Yeah, it was pretty insensitive but it wasnt career ending bigotry in the slightest. Im saying what he said was unaccecptable, but youre still telling me I dont belong in this community? pssh.

Anonymous
>>62120628

I never said that a political view should make someone a protected class. And I never even compared the two. I'm simply pointing out the absurdity of thinking you're inclusive when you want to exclude 50% of people. Just like the absurdity of thinking all Republicans are racist or want to oppress people. Also, I never said I was leaving. I realize you've been fooled into thinking you have power here but you do not. You're nothing more than a petulant child who is arguing with a person that is a minority, agrees with you on 99% of things, is against racism and oppression, and believes that the world would be a better place if all of our immutable characteristics were never used to hurt or oppress someone. But instead of using that common ground you only seem interested in fighting because I don't 100% drink the kool-aid and repeat the mantra. You have been nothing but aggressive and mean-spirited throughout this thread to the people you've replied to. I wish you the best but I hope you spend some time examining your own toxic behavior as opposed to trying to police everyone else.

Anonymous
>>62104283

Corey who said I'm talking about you? Did you say this was censorship or that he was merely expressing a different opinion? No. You're just not as aggressive as I am with the people who say that shit. I have no patience for them. If you do, good for you! I admire your wherewithal. Just don't put me down for having a low threshold for telling them off. I'm not going to just ignore it. I'll never be able to sit by and let people promote tolerating bigotry.

Anonymous
>>62094801

If you think that having the relatively tame standard of wanting people not to oppose when the content creators stand up for people in marginalized communities by refusing to air bigotry is "gatekeeping" then I don't think you understand what you're asking for. This community must have some rule over who should be here. If you want the line to be hate speech from oneself rather than the promotion of hate speech from another, you might need to reevaluate why you think those are functionally different.

Anonymous
>>62120628

You literally said hypocrisy was worse than racism. Use your own status all you want. It doesn't serve as a good shield when you've already made yourself exposed. Nobody here is childish or petulant for not wanting bigotry apologists around.

Anonymous
>>62120628

Sigh, I've laid out my reasoning behind saying that hypocrisy is worse than racism. You have yet to even attempt to refute that or lay out the reasoning for your own viewpoint. You just state it as if it goes without saying. Second, never tried to use my status as a shield. I don't need a shield. I'm pointing out who I am and the experiences with racism I've had. Third, exposed to what? This is the problem with your ideology. You don't even feel the need to state what you believe or what you're asserting, because you seem to just think the world agrees with you. Fourth, I don't want bigotry apologists hanging around either. That wasn't even the point of my initial message. But you decided to attack without even attempting to understand what I'm saying. In fact, I don't even have a problem with KF removing a snippet from the podcast. I never did. You just assumed everything. The point of my initial post is that KF loves to call out shitty behavior but then say nothing when people like you run around attacking "for the right reasons" and you have done nothing but perfectly made my point for me. So kindly go away and resolve your own toxicity elsewhere.

Anonymous
>>62120628

I'll respond in the order you made your points. 1. Racism is the worst trait a person can have. I should not need to explain this. Look at the society we have in this country and tell me why you disagree. 2. I apologize for that remark. 3. I meant exposed yourself, not others. 4. You don't like these people who are calling them taking the snippet out "censorship" or who reduce anyone standing up for oppressed and marginalized people who are being subjected to others punching down as not being able to take "a difference of opinion" the way that some have? Great! I'm glad you agree with me. Why then have you decided to use your energy tonight attacking ME instead of the bigotry apologists? What did I fucking do to you? If you don't feel comfortable being aggressive toward them, you don't have to be. You can try to be patient and explain to them what is wrong with the way they think, but if you have been around as long as you say you have, then you have also seen by now that most of these people will not change. A huge number of them left our community when Colin left, and we have been better off for it. You would think the KF crew telling everyone who voted for Trump they aren't welcome here anymore in a long, thoughtful podcast a year ago would have solidified this. You would think we had freed ourselves from this wretched lot by now. I am losing my patience with them. You'll have to forgive me, I know you think you are so much wiser than I am. Perhaps when I am as old as however old you are, then I will have more patience for these fuckers. Right now, I don't, and I think it is well within the values of a kind and inclusive community to stand up for the marginalized and oppressed as aggressively as possible. In fact, in my opinion this is the right way to do things. The guys have tried to change their minds. Lord knows Greg has tried to bring as many people on his journey away from Colin's toxic influence as he can. But what do you say to someone who has been a PATRON of this channel, who trusts these guys enough to give them their money, but not enough to know that they make the right call when they say "oh that isn't the kind of speech we want aired on our channel, we aren't posting that, we aren't promoting that." They aren't cable news. They have no obligation not to hide something, and they don't owe that man a platform. What do you say to people who read this very thoughtful statement by Greg and think he is censoring his guest because he can't deal with a difference of opinion? I'll tell you this much: you can't come up with anything he hasn't tried before. I think it's about time we stop trying, and start telling them to get out.

Dan Careaga

The amount of reductive and non-communicative supposition of one and others beliefs based on statements typed in the heat of trying to get the intellectual high ground here is fucking Staggering. Almost no one seems to be listening to each other or even willing to listen. Every sentence, short of outright declaration of hatred of any group or person, Anyone here says doesn't need to be taken as proof of anyones complete being or system of belief. Most peoples set's of morals and beliefs can't be reduced to a simple statement, as much as we want that to be to make it easier to see who the "Enemy" is. Guess what, it isn't that simple, and when we try to make it that simple we only create more negativity, anger and hatred. This need to root people out by parsing oversimplified statements they make is destructive and rooted in the same conspiratorial thinking that is quickly destroying the fabric of everyday life. See: The Last Four Years In Particular. Terrible people usually show you who they are. Without compunction or shame. Again See: The Last Four Years. But thats how it goes right? Gotta type fast and get the moral high ground and declare victory. Even if decent people with nuanced differences of opinion are sacrificed for the feeling of righteous superiority. Why bother asking Real questions and engendering discourse, even within disagreements when we can ask snide, bullshit, reductive, accusatory questions meant to paint people as a monolithic evil while painting ourselves as the righteous standard bearer of... whatever. We never seem to take the lead of the people we follow. For the most part the KF crew engender discussion of difficult issues even if it's uncomfortable. This has been a growing trend over the years and one I have been so happy to see. The KF team has grown and matured exponentially and no matter the reasoning behind this particular instance it is One instance that most of us don't have all the information on. So I trust the team to make the right call. They've earned that in my book. Especially with how their brand is seen by the public via content they release. None of this is remotely at the level of "FUCK THESE GUYS! I'M OUT!!". But we seem to be getting there quickly. Instead we are chasing each other in circles, playing "Gotcha!!!", trying to prove our points that seem to reside solely in our individual moral vacuums. That isn't Community at work, that's selfish self aggrandizement at other peoples expense. It work's directly against community and coming together, it breaks bonds that were strong... or could be with some intellectual nourishment. And as a side note No Community or group of people should ever be 100% on the same page, all the time. Look through history at the ones that were. It isn't pretty. Group think leads to dark places. Diversity of thought can be a beautiful thing when we actually Communicate properly. P.S. In this case I am So Glad I didn't see the live broadcast. I am guessing it would have made me angry and uncomfortable and I thank the KF crew for taking that concept into consideration for their Best Friends.

Dan Careaga
>>62120628

Hey man, I have seen you around forever in the community, longer than I have been. And You have always been a super cool community member and I don't completely disagree. From my perspective I would add that a direct comparison of Racism to Hypocrisy really buries the point I think you are making. A point Well Worth Making. That Hypocrisy is a bedfellow and agent of Racism. It covers it up. Bigotry in general is disguised in unchecked hypocrisy. And in truth they are all behaviors that work in concert to foment oppression and suffering. Maybe I am off base but that is how I take your point. I would also add that I agree with you in regards to calling out toxicity across the spectrum. Espousing progressive beliefs Is wonderful until ones behaviors don’t actually back up their claim. You can believe in equality all day long, truly believe, but if one can’t deliver that message without telling people to “fuck off” At the first sign of minimal pushback… well that’s toxic behavior. In fact it’s closed minded. Interesting that in a world where we fight labels and binary concepts our core beliefs are expected to be absolutely binary and easily labeled or you’re a terrible person because we can’t verify by your label that your a “good one”. We certainly can’t take the time to talk rationally and find out. If we look back to the podcast where they team talked about Trump supporters not being welcome not only did they specify that it wasn’t aimed at Republicans or conservatives but they never stooped to telling any one to “fuck off” or otherwise. I would hope the community could at least uphold that example as set by the actual KF team. In retrospect, while I still support what was expressed that day it seems like it has created pockets of excessive intolerance for people who aren’t in lock step at all times in the community. As you pointed out, some community members seem to have deputized themselves to police what is acceptable. With no mandate from KF proper, probably because they can do that themselves. When they can’t they have mods for that and we all know who they are. This can be a slippery slope, it was Trump supporters and today it was “you think hypocrisy is worse than racism”. Never mind the conversation to be had there. First reaction. Get Out. I don’t believe anyone in this thread is arguing that we shouldn’t champion marginalized people aggressively. But the tactics should be chosen wisely and as dispassionately as possible for the greatest effect. The worst groups to belong to historically are primarily defined by who they exclude. We should be careful about how and why we exclude people and certainly not in a knee jerk moment born from an emotional reaction to someone trying to communicate honestly with good intent, even if we disagree vehemently at first.

Anonymous
>>62148999

You equating everyone agreeing to trust the guys not to air hate speech without accusing them of censorship or not tolerating a difference of opinion with groupthink is actually exactly the toxicity we have been trying to find. Thank you for identifying yourself as someone who is more afraid of people who defend hate speech being associated with it than the hate speech itself proliferating within a community. Maybe you should think about why you feel that way. Your pointing to "the last four years" i.e. Trumpism being the result of people not listening to eqch other is actually quite telling. Allow me to explain Trumpism to you quite simply: racism and xenophpobia. The fear of the other. The guys are trying to create a community free of it, and there are people who have been fighting them every step of the way. Does a person like that show me what their views on health policy are in that statement? No, of course you are right that we don't know a person's entire ideology. What we do know, however, is the piece of their ideology that is relevant to whether they belong in this community: how they feel about hate speech. This is a community with a diverse array of opinions, from proud socialists to run of the mill Democrats and probably some liberal Republicans who are disgusted with the bigotry their party's politicians have expressed. None of those issues are what is relevant here. All that matters in this community is that we have people who are not promoting, enacting, or defending hate speech, so that we can have a comfortable place for people of all marginalized identities. That's it. That's not groupthink, it's just one fucking simple rule about how to behave. You acting as though we need to keep around a group of people who are upset by this post does not reflect well on your own values.

Anonymous
>>62120628

A couple things here: Thank you for the kind words about my presence in the community. I try. I completely disagree that bigotry is the result of unchecked hypocrisy. Bigotry is the result of ingroup bias, ownership class manipulation of working class folk, outdated cultural standards, and psychological phenomena. You can be a hypocrite about everything in your life without ever holding an ounce of bigoted views, and you can be a kind and principled person while being an enormous racist. I've met both types of people. The hypocrite might be less fun to be around, but the friendly racist does more damage to society. Dan, where did I say that I care about labels? Where did I say in this thread "Republicans get out" because I do not think I did. No, what I have based my argument on is entirely behavioral. We have the evidence. It's written here in comments. There are people, whatever their number, who would read Greg's post here and get angry. People who think that the team not airing hate speech is "censorship" or merely not being able to take "a difference of opinion." You don't say that without being driven by an ideological tenet of caring more about totally unchecked free speech, the ability to say whatever you want, whenever you want without consequence, more than you care about actual human beings. This issue is why Colin left. He made a misogynistic joke on international women's day, the team probably wanted him to apologize, and he to this day refuses and in fact revels in what he did. There are people who are committed to being incendiary, to never challenging whether we should be saying something, who think that "free speech" means nobody should ever face social consequences for their words and every bigoted statement should be broadcast to the world. These people make for an unsafe community for folks who are sensitive about their identities being attacked. All you need to do is look up suicide statistics for trans people to see why the team is taking this stance. Words matter. There is absolutely a divide here, and it's not about labels. It's about words and actions.

Dan Careaga

Probably my fault but you’ve reached some conclusions I wasn’t implying. Group Think is the end result of the current path and perhaps the ideal of a few community members. Hence why I said “side note” so as to delineate in wasn’t in reference to the main topic at hand but a possible place to end up. I never said we were there or even near there but more that diversity of thought should be something to strive for in the face of that path. Unfortunately you can’t seem to have a rational discussion with out being condescending. But thanks for explaining Trumpism to me. I never thought I’d figure it out. The whole Mexicans are rapists and murderers thing gaining him popularity was confusing for my inferior Mexican brain. Believe it or not I agree with you. The is no room for hate speech. Anywhere in my opinion. Your point about censorship was right on. I think you are conflating several separate ideas in my post as a cascade of proof. And I’ve identified my self as nothing more than someone willing to listen until it’s time Not to listen. I’m not upset by any of this. You seem to be, and you seem passionate about it. I respect that a lot! The unfortunate side of this is that the condescension and characterizing my intent for me without being in my head is actually A form of toxicity. Rather than ask me to clarify any single statement you chose to characterize me and my words to the worst possible version of what you hate. That serves your purpose very well, whatever that purpose is. But it negates my actual attempt to contribute to the discussion in a rational manner. Maybe that’s the point.

Anonymous
>>62158933

Dan, I responded to your other message to me which you seem not to have seen. You were relatively polite to me in that message, much more so in this first one. Let's get a couple things clear. 1. I have literally not insulted anyone in this entire thread. I have not once called anyone any names. I apologize for implying you were one of them, but you were defending them, and like you said your words were not as clear. In this statement you are clearly identifying yourself as an ally to the general cause of rooting out people who want to promote hate speech. I'm sorry for mislabeling you. I wish I had been able to identify you otherwise in your initial tweet. I assure you my intent is not to characterize people who are kind and don't promote hate speech as otherwise. That is completely antithetical to my goal. As for what you said about Trumpism, I'm not sure what phenomenon you were referring to when you said "the last four years" that you were attributing to people not listening to each other. If it's simply arguments on the internet, I assure you that they have existed in equal fervor for quite some time, and if it is vitriol in politics, I assure you that it is well-deserved, because people who associate themselves with a movement you agree is racist deserve no kindness. It has occurred to me that by "the last four years" you may have meant the years since Colin left this community. That is probably much more likely. I'm sorry for misinterpreting that. I suppose Trumpism actually is older than four years, but the pandemic really has us all thinking it's still 2020 sometimes, doesn't it? As far as four years of community arguments go, I think listening to people like Colin is actually what was doing the most damage. The fewer of them exist within our walls, the more pleasant things have been. Not listening to them was always the answer. Not having time for people who promote airing bigotry was always the answer. I think that's clear. I am merely being as aggressive as I can be, because you and I disagree about something: I think it is well past time not to listen anymore. The guys tried to listen for years. We tried that approach. It did not work. These toxic people are still here. Everyone seems mad at me for recognizing this. I am a kind person. I help others. I donated $250 to the Palestine charity thing they did. I care about people and I give people advice and I am involved in the community in the best way I can be. It is only when I see people defending bigotry that my claws come out. If you blame me for that, so be it. I wish I had the patience to keep giving these people second chances. It's been years.

Anonymous
>>62158933

At the end of the day, I am just extremely weary of anyone who promotes "diversity of thought" for its own sake. We will never be able to get a community of people who 100% agree about everything, because that would be a community of exactly one person. The guys have not made supporting Medicare for All a prerequisite for being here. They should NOT either. They have not made anything a prerequisite for being here other than one, simple rule: don't support hate speech. It's so, so simple. It's so simple. It's such a low bar to ask this of people. I don't think that one rule leads to groupthink. I really don't think us all agreeing on one simple thing, not to support hate speech of any kind, should lead to concerns that we are all going to behave with a hivemind. We have an extremely diverse community. I know within the KindaNYC there were non-voters, Biden supporters, Bernie supporters, etc. All we are trying to root out is Trump people and anyone who allies with them. I really think that your concerns over this stuff are unreasonable man. I'm trying to be nice about this now because apparently I'm the mean one for taking such a strong stance against bigotry. I do not think that us saying "don't promote hate speech here" is an inevitable slippery slope into groupthink. I do not think us saying "please understand the reason they don't want to air hate speech on their channel" will lead to a dangerous lack in diveristy of thought. There is plenty to go around man, I promise.

Anonymous
>>62158933

Really dude, I'm happy to hear that you think we need to weed out people who support hate speech. You and I are completely aligned. You have *nothing* to be angry at me about. I promise. I'm completely on your side, and had you simply identified yourself sooner this all would have been much easier. I am only interested in taking strong stances against people who disagree with one thing: we don't promote hate speech. We don't give it a platform. If you think xyz about other issues, whatever. All that's relevant to this community is that we do not listen to people who want to cry "censorship" when we need to take down hate speech. If you and I agree about that, we have *no* issue. Again, I apologize for misidentifying you. You did not say up front you agreed with me. You saved that for your second message. I'm not sure why. I am not sure why ANYONE who agrees with me about hate speech would take issue with ANYTHING that I am saying. I'm not sure why I am being subject to a barrage of insults from people. If you read my initial post, the one that includes the phrase "Colin acolytes," I really think that it's rather tame. I wasn't even yelling at anyone in particular. I was just making a simple observation. I wish you all the best man. I hope one day you see things my way, and that you agree we just don't have the time, space, or energy to keep listening to people whose ideology is intent on doing harm.

Anonymous
>>62158933

I just completely disagree that it's toxic to be rude to toxic people. I think this definition of the "paradox of tolerance" explains so well: "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant." That's everything. That's our whole argument here. We can't tolerate intolerance. We can't give the people who defend hate speech an inch of space. Every tiny bit of discourse we allow them to control actively does damage to what we are trying to achieve.

Anonymous
>>62158933

Since you seem willing to engage with me, I'd like to explore this further and try to understand some of the other people in this thread who claim to be on my side but are also insulting me the entire time. I do want to be nice and understand. Please help if you can: Maybe my line for condescension is different than other people's? If you look at what I said to Zachary, I think I was rather fair to him. I ended it with an "if" statement, not an accusation but more of a question for him. If he thinks this, "maybe" he should think again about it. That's all. My claim being that defending hate speech is functionally the same as saying it oneself. If you look at my interaction with Jorge and Corey, I actually think I was extremely gracious to them. I didn't even IMPLY either of them were in the wrong and they came for my head. If you look at my conversation with the guy with a 7 in his name (I forget, I can't see it from this typing window), he was very very mean to me from the start. He opened it up by insulting me, and I was nicer to him than the other guy! I wrote long, thoughtful messages about why I think what I think. This ENTIRE time I have been writing nuanced messages explaining my views on policing hate speech and its proponents in our group. I really am not sure why everyone is choosing to be mean to me out of the gate in every single interaction. I am only working with what I have been given.

Anonymous
>>62158933

Marc, don’t know how or where I went for your head, certainly wasn’t my intention and my message wasn’t even directed at you. All I said was “let’s reflect the values we want to see in others”, agreeing that even the right support and intentions can become aggressive as well. There’s definitely a scary amount of assumptions going on, especially for people who are saying “I agree with the decision made”. Hope this helps clarify, take care

Anonymous
>>62158933

Jorge, I'm sorry. It was more Corey calling me an asshole than you. You're right.

Dan Careaga
>>62120628

Hey Marc, just saw this... I was typing everything out on the ipad app which is super unhelpful. An my first specific reply to you was right as I was falling asleep. not a great choice. We are actually 99% in agreement. I think we just disagree on when to fight fire with fire. And believe me I know where you're coming from I am just wary of communications breaking down between real allies who may be reacting too quickly out of real passion for something. I have done this a lot in my life so I tend to over correct in this area. To clarify, no bigotry isn't a "result" of hypocrisy. Its a bedfellow. hypocrisy is an agent of it. a tool used much like gaslighting. Also, the majority of my response here was aimed at the person who first responded to Throw7, you have been pretty reasonable while passionate in your responses right up until explaining Trumpism to me. so I apologize if I generalized you into all of this. In truth I wasn't actually pointing my statements at any one person. More at a general vibe I have seen pop up from time to time. Really, in may biigger long ass post, I am speaking more conceptually asking the questions out loud for myself and the community. In this specific response it was more about the initial respondent than you. Man I wish we could all talk face to face, I bet we would all be within a few words of agreement within minutes. The above point about the time frame of Colin leaving is 100% correct. I will be super transparent, I was on my way out of this community until he left. The way he manipulated conversations in podcasts, the need to be incendiary and take pleasure in it, especially when it is least appropriate and claiming "personal freedom" while insulting and hurting people around him was too much for me to take near the end there. I will say it straight up, his way of operating became more and more low-key abusive to the KF crew and community the more unhappy he became. And we all put up with it for too long, hoping for the best and out of loyalty to the old days. So when I speak about the last four years it is primarily with this in mind, as you said below, and the process of moving away from that mixed with the Trump white house and all those same abusive behaviors being used at the highest level of our government. It all has made my tolerance for aggressive behavior at the first sign of disagreement Very low. I am alway more likely to engage some one as they will usually only show you more and more how toxic they are which makes visualizing them publicly easier. Having said that I totally understand why you take the approach you do. I feel like we are actually coming from the same place but the process of typing everything out leads to a fracturing of having an actual conversation, at least it does for me. Just know I fully support the ideals you have espoused, now that we have had a longer discourse :), even if I might take a different approach.

Anonymous
>>62120628

Dan, I really appreciate the way you have engaged with me in the messages in this thread. I'm glad we got back in line with each other here. Honestly, I wasn't even trying to challenge people directly (you might notice I was actually just complaining in general, not even confronting them). I was probably a bit too firm with Corey and now we have a bunch of people who basically are in complete agreement arguing with each other. I'm sorry for that. I am happy you see things the way I do about how they have to be. I promise that I am usually nicer to people in one on one conversations, I just got angry seeing how many people were still being shitty here and wanted to vent. Also, I mean, the only person who was actually purposefully mean to anyone here was Throw7 toward me. He called me a lot of names! Other than that we have all just been kind of passionately arguing about methods