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Doctor Who 3x2 “The Shakespeare Code” FULL REACTION (Patreon)

Published:
2020-01-08 00:25:43
Edited:
2020-04-21 13:22:46
Imported:
2021-10

Content

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kxyu9rruPBKDmzH3tSUvNY2MkO4zeOJD/view?usp=drivesdk

Files

Comments

Anonymous

You have an American perspective. African slavery was not common in England at that time. Any race could could be enslaved as an indentured servant. Your role in society was defined more by class than by race. Discrimination was not based on race but on your social standing. The slavery you are thinking of was mainly in the colonies to work the plantations.

otherboy
>>30879116

I’m sorry but black people were never indentured servants even in England. They would’ve never chosen to go to England. They were forced.

Anonymous

The article your referenced is focused mainly on the 18th century when the triangle trade was at its height. In the time of Shakespeare It was not common. Notice that the article said that blacks were in Britain since the 12th century. But the Atlantic slave trade did not start until 3 centuries later. But all that aside. Here is something I think you will appreciate and enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bdCE0pme0E

otherboy
>>30880383

The article actually talks about slavery in 17th and 18th century Britain. This episode of Doctor Who took place in 1599 so it was just about to be the start of the 17th century. I seriously doubt Brits we’re best buds with blacks and then all of a sudden decided to start enslaving them the next year but ok...

Henry from CO

Moving on ..... The WHO Confidential on this episode (making of) was very cool as production works after obtaining permission to use the Globe Theater for filming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOFcG4ibtQ

Lloyd B

I appreciate your frustration with this episode. In their defence I many of the stories for the show are selected well in advance, even before the cast has been chosen, and I dare say this one may have been slotted in before Freema was given the role of Martha (she didn't get the job until after her small role in the finale of season 2). So apart from the couple of minor references they just tried to fit in with the story. Having said that, the show does greatly improve the way they depict historical race relations (there is a story in a future season on that very topic which is both harrowing and inspiring, and I really hope you stick with the show to see it). DW has always tried to be inclusive, and while there are bumps along the way, by and large they have always tried to show people of different races and genders as equal and equally capable. I agree though that whitewashing or ignoring likely historical racism is not the right way to go about it. Trust me, though, the approach to these things improve considerably in future episodes and seasons.

Anonymous

I was really wary of you coming to this episode because I knew you'd be frustrated even though you shouldn't be. While nations like the Portuguese were starting off the Atlantic slave trade at this point, Britain wouldn't become involved till the 1640s after they'd gained Virginia as a colony. Here, this episode takes place well prior to that, where slavery hadn't been present in Britain since the 12th century, and even at that point slaves would have been Scots or the Welsh, taken by the English. At this point, a woman of colour would be a curiosity of some faraway land, and would certainly be treated as such, but the sort of racism and discrimination you think Martha should have faced in this episode, she wouldn't have done.

Mark Ward

Man I just wrote a very long response to this and it doesn't appear to have saved annoyingly. I knew you'd hate this (as I do) but for very different reasons. I totally hear some of your concerns re: race in this episode, but I think you've got a few facts wrong re: black people in London (and I'm really hating being another white man trying to correct but I think it's important...) I've just done some fact checking to make sure I'm not completely off piste with this. In 16th century London, the population of the city rose from 50000 to 200000 and the majority of that increase came from non-English people, many of whom were non-white (North Africa in particular being a big source of immigrants). There were some riots, some protests about the amount of immigration (not dissimilar to 20th/21st century London tbh...) but black people did live in London and were not enslaved - slavery happened later. Basically things got a lot worse for black people before they got better from this time period... A quote from the British library: 'London was, as so often in its history, a city of conspicuous contrasts - between poverty and obscene wealth, between rivalrous social classes and above all between different racial groups. On the one hand inhabitants of different ethnicities and beliefs were accepted and more openly than anywhere else in England; on the other, the line of acceptance was thin.' I think what you're seeing in this episode is the writers pushing the 'line of acceptance' further than they possibly should to be in good taste, but mostly for the convenience of storytelling. I totally get why that is offensive to you though - it's important to recognise our history with civil rights and racism. On another note completely, I absolutely despise this episode just cos it's generally shit. It's in my bottom 3 of Season 3 (and I dislike this and the other episodes I'm referring to more than the much maligned Fear Her from Season 2...) - once you get through that shit though, the second half of the season is well worth it...!

Mark Ward

Having said all of that, I really love your responses - you're so honest and a really great reactor so keep up the great work!! :)

otherboy
>>30901466

I love what you said about the “line of acceptance”. Yes slavery came later, but the Doctor’s response to Martha asking if she would be enslaved was so flippant to me. “Why would anyone do that? Just act like you own the place that’s always worked for me”. That line bothered me. As if he was saying that if blacks were just more confident they would be treated better. Anyway thanks for watching😄

Adam C Turek

There's been some research into Black people living in 1500's England, suggesting evidence that some became merchants and would be present as visitors in Courts held by Henry VIII. So maybe their being present at a Shakespeare play isn't impossible. I can see why you'd be ticked off by the Doctors response, on rewatch it is a bit too casual, but i think it was in keeping of making sure the viewing public had some escapism as the Doctor and Martha fight Witches with William Shakespeare. Not a spoiler in any way, but you'll be glad to know that if you keep watching the show, it will take risks, but the family friendly content will always come first.

Daryl

I do see what you're saying and I knew this reaction was coming. I'm trying to think of a much better way for them to handle that moment of Martha's concern about her safety while time travelling. The moment of recognition happens. Which is an important acknowledgement. But The Doctor dismisses her concerns in his cavalier manner. Which I'm not a fan of either frankly. He could say he'll protect her but then we fall into the area of saying that women need a mans protection and I'm not a fan of sending that message either. He could say there's nothing to worry about, then that's saying the issue isn't there. Which he does sort of do I guess. You could see his comments as a social commentary highlighting a white persons narrow perspective throughout history. 🤔 I'm still trying to find the alternative that we can be happy with. They maybe should give the issue the screen time that it deserves. The ugly reality is slavery in all its forms existed long before this period, during this period, after this and still to this day in some parts of the world. In British Empire and the subsequent colonies, America, Egypt, Africa are some. Sex trafficing still exists. Sweatshops. Restavek was a word I learnt in my 20's. Basically anywhere there has been human civilisation. I personally don't want a show where it is ignored completely. I don't want a show where it's a part of every episode. I don't want a show where we avoid casting anyone that isn't white or from different geographical areas or social classes because they can't go here or there throughout time. The truth is that there isn't going to be a good way to handle this subject in this particular show. If we don't cast Freema then we lose out on a great actress. If we are a little more realistic with the depiction then there's the possibility we are going to be watching her racially abused every other week. I'm not down for that either. I will echo what others have said. The show does get better with this subject.

otherboy
>>30907696

Well said. I’m just gonna have to try to forget this episode😩

Anonymous
>>30907696

No, this isn't well said, you have your history of England entirely wrong. The Doctor's comment was flippant, but this portrayal of a black person in 1599 is entirely fair. There was no slavery in Britain at this point. Not a great episode, but the race issue here isn't an issue. That said there is an episode much much later in the series in which the whitewashing does aggravate me.

Daryl
>>30907696

If you read again carefully I make no mention of slavery specifically in England at this time. But very broadly as something in all its forms that has happened throughout the world at various times in history and in fact the present so how that relates to dealing with it as a general subject within the entire show. I'm commenting on the The Doctor's dismissive nature of Martha's particular concern in that moment. Which is a subject of interpretation not historical fact. I never said the portyal of a Black person in England was in any way unfair at any point.

Anonymous

Sigh! Let just move on. There are truly "fantastic" episodes to come and I am looking forward to Other Boy's reactions to those.

Anonymous
>>30907696

"The ugly reality is slavery in all its forms existed long before this period, during this period, after this and still to this day in some parts of the world. In British Empire and the subsequent colonies, America, Egypt, Africa are some." Slavery did exist at this point, mainly in North Africa where various Muslim kingdoms would kidnap coastal European dwellers and take them back to their home. But the crucial point you're missing is it did not exist in this area or even nearby at this time. There was no British Empire. Certain stories and time periods are most appropriate to discuss topics of slavery or racial discrimination, but this is not one of them as these issues play no real part, so I am confused why these discussions are being had here, an episode in which they are largely not at work. Everyone's confusion of late Renaissance societal values and structures seems to be tainting the view of this episode. And regardless of your own views Daryl, OtherBoy said in the video consistently Martha wouldn't be allowed in there, Shakespeare would react to her skin colour like this, she'd be carted off as a slave etc., none of which is true, though I conceit the Doctor's response should have been to briefly give her the historical context of why she'd be fine, not to quickly brush it off.

Daryl
>>30907696

The comment goes to how OtherBoy perceives how Martha's ethnicity will be treated as she time travels in the context of the of whole show. A topic he raised himself which is why it's been discussed and he has had his facts of this time period corrected several times by various people and I have not once contradicted those facts. I am talking about the Martha character expressing her concerns as she time travels for the first time and how that moment had to be acknowledged. Past that moment I had reservations with how her concern was handled by The Doctor's comment, but that I had no better suggestion. Your suggestion is fine. I'd of been happy with it myself as a caucasian man. I thought about suggesting it myself. But I personally felt it could of played as dismissive while being historical accurate. COULD of not necessarily WOULD of been perceived to be yet another white man lecturing a black woman about how to feel about that form of slavery, however wrong she was at that time. I could however be wrong about that. It's not for me to say how others should feel. I never sighted any examples of how she was treated incorrectly in England in 1599. Which you seem intent on correcting me on. I believe I then said slavery existed throughout history and gave examples that were not connected to the slave trade. Which if you want me to say it specifically... That happened later! I personally didn't feel it appropriate to lecture him on how to feel about racial discrimination. Or pile on about how inaccurate his knowledge was about this time period. I felt that had been done quite successfully. How you or he decides to perceive my comments is simply out of my control.

otherboy
>>30907696

Aidan Raffle, there may not have been slavery at the time but there definitely was tension between whites and blacks as many Londoners were uncomfortable with the amount of immigrants and believed blacks were taking jobs, not unlike with Latinos today in America. Technically we don’t have slavery in America today but that doesn’t mean all races get along and the same for the UK. Blacks back then still had to conform to English Protestant religion. That is not freedom. And women had no rights. And even the queen ordered that blacks be deported so Martha was in my opinion appropriate to worry for her safety as a black woman

Mark Ward
>>30907696

Interestingly, it's actually Martha's response to something that riles me the most. When Shakespeare calls her many names which we would now think of as racial slights, she says 'I can't believe I'm hearing this'... on what planet would a black woman brought up with an intelligent understanding of history be SURPRISED to hear those comments from a white man in 1599? She can be offended but being surprised makes no sense whatsoever

otherboy
>>30907696

To be fair it is her first time travel experience so she would be in shock to hear that. It’s one thing to read about blatant racism but to experience it first hand is totally different.