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Episode 150: And Then Something Strange Happened (Patreon)

Published:
2021-04-12 01:08:05
Edited:
2024-03-10 16:24:49
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Content

The inimitable Michael S. Judge joins us to talk through Adam Curtis’ new docu-essay-series Can’t Get You Out Of My Head. You can watch the new series on YouTube starting with Part 1 here.

You can read the New Yorker profile here.

Check out Michael's podcast, Death Is Around the Corner.

Files

Comments

Paul Brewer

I can't really comment on Curtis' CGYOOMH, because I still haven't watched it However, I found this episode infuriating in the way it eventually lurched into ad hominem assaults on Curtis' presentation. Brace notes 'It takes people at their word' as if it is a flaw, rather than seeing that Curtis starts there because most of his <i>audience</i> take politicians at their word. In order to subvert the apparent reality, he has to re-present it as it appears in media. Liz says she doesn't understand his concept of power -- it's nebulous. But again, that's his point -- power is nebulous. For most of his <i>audience</i>, power is not something directly experienced, but resembles the quality of mercy falling as a gentle rain to control those that give and those that take. Michael says he doesn't say capitalism, neoliberalism or globalism. Again, it's a conscious choice by him to swerve the poli-sci cant because his <i>audience</i> doesn't really respond to them any longer. (Bernie's attempts to rehabilitate 'socialism' really made him seem like a crank. I've chosen these early remarks but I actually have listened all the way to the end. Broadly speaking, the ad hominems amount to three elements: (a) Curtis is fatuous because he thinks vibes precede material change; (b) Curtis possesses an unctuous manner in trying to build an audience; and, the second-most heinous crime in the TrueAnon catalogue of sins, (c) he's British. By the end it has come to feel like an hour-and-three-quarters of a trio of Americans bitter about how a Briton has managed once again to charm the American Left a la Christopher Hitchens. You should have taken Curtis' work on its own terms. He is one of those old-fashioned non-Marxist Gramscians who dominated the British Discourse from the very late 1980s until Late Stage New Labout. Without doubt these people utterly failed at creating a viable political alternative to the post-Thatcher consensus. As you should have said, interpreting the world doesn't go far enough. (PS -- there are several moments where Britons' proverbial smirk about Americans not getting irony is on display, by all accounts from other comments)

Paul Brewer

From the vantage of working through the back catalogue in 2023, I am looking forward to Brace's assault on LM network fellow traveller Alex Hochuli in episode 162 for connecting himself to 'British Laroucheism'.

dam

That airport across from Mandalay is busy as fuck. There's a heli tour company there that flies directly over the 15 freeway and the strip over and over. They literally fly over every 5 minutes. I live in Vegas, could film it for you any time spring to fall with decent weather

Alex

I think Century of Self is still worth a watch but it's a bummer to know all the time put into most of his works is so broad and shallow

Anonymous

finally!!

Nat Ware

hell yes

Spectro

!!! Holy shit holy shit! The crossover episode I’ve been wishing for!

doink

That series sucks really bad

Marc Silverstein

This is only the 5th podcast episode I’ve listened to on the documentary

Anonymous

Anyone who hasn’t checked out MSJ’s series on JFK is missing out!

Bobby Volcano

Dream team back together again

George Mitri

Very very good. I’m a fan of Curtis, but I’m also a fan of critiques of Curtis 😊

Anonymous

Big 3 is back

Grimmu

yess

Degrassi Osborne

Wtf I was just finishing his JFK series for the first time. Talk about eye emoji shit right there.

Michael Andrew Damaso

Okay I thought it was gonna be MIke Judge like the King of the Hill guy and I was like dude what

Jimothy Realname

me when i saw thids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iQLNR9btr4

Dan Greene

I have never watched an Adam Curtis film, and the only reason I know his name is that podcasters like talking about him

James

That might be the best Trump impression I've ever heard, great job.

Anonymous

Ayyyyyy

Vincent Utah

Probably the biggest crux of Curtis’ work is you have watch all of it (and I mean ALL of it) in order to actually grasp at what he’s attempting to get at—which obviously the vast majority of people don’t have the time or care to do. It’s one giant schizophrenic amalgamation he leaves you to decipher, much of which includes his analysis of specific characters in history that he uses to stand in as a medium for what he believes to be a significant force of “power” in whichever period he’s outlining. That being said, it’s easy to get caught up in his fancy accent and the raw emotion that comes from dubbing Burial over a jarring clip from the BBC archive. Some things he gets right, others you can argue against if you know the material, but that’s the bitch of history: most of us weren’t there to see it happen and much of it is hearsay.

Jason Fugate

I am 15 minutes in and smiling so much. Michael Judge is a great guest who seemingly fits right in, love listening to episodes with him.

Anonymous

What track plays at 45 minutes in??

Lionel Boyd Johnson

I really like Adam Curtis documentaries, but this critique was on point 100%. You guys rock as usual.

Lionel Boyd Johnson

Why not do a show on the BBC? Can go over their documented ties to British Intelligence- maybe that explains Curtis? Yung chomsky, cue the: "Dun dun DUN!"

Hunter

Hey, Brace. Is this the book to which you were referring at 1:08:50? https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745327808/the-battle-for-chinas-past/

Bobby Volcano

Ok after listening, can I just say a) I know we're not supposed to like the friendship simulator aspect of podcast consumption, but hearing you all genuinely enjoying each other's company so much was very heartwarming b) Has anyone done a good cultural revolution series bc I don't know jack shit about it but want to c) great ep

uya

Wait did u guys think dmx’s death was a hoax?? He’s dead

Fombat

I was hype about this episode. Now I just feel dumb

Anonymous

What's the song in the opening. I know I know it. Is it Brian eno?

themaroonlagoon

The Curtis doc at ThoughtMaybe (recommended by a friend b/c no weird edits as on YouTube due to copyright issues, etc., as of when I watched it anyways): https://thoughtmaybe.com/cant-get-you-out-of-my-head/ . . . all his docs: https://thoughtmaybe.com/by/adam-curtis/

Lionel Boyd Johnson

Castle Bank info https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1980/04/24/cia-helped-quash-major-star-studded-tax-evasion-case/a55ddf06-2a3f-4e04-a687-a3dd87c32b82/ Mike mentions it around 1:25

Anonymous

MSJ is a treasure

Dane McDowell
>>57561423

I think people take him too seriously. With each subsequent film he's expected to unravel and explain the whole world. In a semi-functioning media landscape he would be regarded as a neat film maker.

Welfare state

Great ep today, always happy to hear someone defend the gang

Frederick Von Drasek

...isn't it even worse if Buttigieg is just "intelligence adjacent", a fuckin' wannabee who'll do their bidding because he thinks it's cool or advanced or whateverthefuck? It's pretty much a wash, one way or the other, I say...

Anonymous

Saw some critics compare Exterminate All the Brutes (which I watched today and enjoyed) to some Curtis films which made me think about watching this next to compare &amp; contrast.

Anonymous

This is one of my least fav eps of this pod. The critiques here are kinda missing the point. You don't deal with any of the substantive things he does deal with, seems like you guys are just sad he went on red scare and not your podcast, nah jokes, but the critique you offer is shallow.

Jonathan lees

Always interesting gear

Baily McDaniel

Hey guys I am so flattered that you are making episodes tailored specifically to my personal tastes. I don't think I wanna know what Brace would do if I upgraded to the next tier😬😏😳🤔 Seriously tho, hearing actual humans like Matt &amp; Virgil, Liz &amp; Brace, Dasha &amp; Anna, MJ or Adam Curtis have made me feel a little less nuts thru all this bullshit🙏

Dane McDowell

For those who haven't listened to Death/Corner, I can't recommend it enough. Michael is brilliant.

Titivilis

Oh thank god.

Peter T.

such a good cold open

hannah

Holy nico zappia, it's THAT mike judge! i screamed

Anonymous

Christ what a circlejerk.

dillards dept.

Worst ep of show. Using cheap straw man arguments . Never actually engaging with points made in doc. Wow pretty lazy y'all.

hannah

Okay but what about Toy Story 4?

K Barlas

Yessss, i couldnt help but think abt how detached/non-dialectical curtis was sounding on chapo, good to see a left critique offered

Xaris

Great episode. Always going to be a good episode when MSJ is on. People should checkout MSJ's Death is Just Around the Corner podcast. I would love for him to be a more frequent 3rd mic to the show as he slots in nicely and such it's such a perfect vibe, vocal, and knowledge fit.

Louie Van Patten

Love these guys. Has Brace seen Inland Empire? Can we make him watch it?

Shivvy

so ready to get Curtis-pilled with Michael and the Kids

Shivvy

!! JewellWatch is my favorite segment I forget about until it happens!

Anonymous

Hmm. I think saying Curtis “has a child’s view of history” and that he believes innocently that neocons wanted to spread democracy is a really weird patronizing take on him. Pretty sure he was saying politicians in the us were giving away democratic institutional oversight (power) to the free market. Not sure if I’m going to finish this one. Too bad was looking forward to it.

Anonymous
>>57569487

This wasn’t a great ad for him tho. I’m getting tired of the constant dunking on the left. Seems like he wants to prove Curtis is wrong more than engaging with his points. I’m not a Curtis super fan, it’s more I’m just tired of sneer culture.

Anonymous

I really love Adam Curtis's work and I do take them with a pinch of salt but I hope this doesn't hurt me

Anonymous

I think they haven’t gone deep enough w Adam’s work to understand a lot of the short hand he uses in his latest somewhat bloated series. Adam is operating on video or tv rules, and the true anon guys are evaluating it based on Twitter / journalist rules.

boop

dude peaked with bitter lake :/

Anonymous

regarding Kerry Thornley - I don’t think Curtis covered it with enough clarity - but I didn’t interpret it as “the Illuminati conspiracy began with Thornley/ Playboy“ but that he inadvertently helped get it mixed up in the counterculture with real conspiracies/crimes. Also, Robert Anton Wilson wasn’t really a “shady figure” and certainly not a CIA asset. Wilson was an author and a friend of Thornley who eventually had to stop communicating with him because Thornley was so paranoid he believed Wilson was secretly part of a CIA conspiracy against him. Wilson’s books and lectures are a treasure - highly amusing and more than sometimes prescient.

JD

Frustrated with MSJ's point about Curtis not understanding Team A/B Neocon lies about Soviet Union deterioration - Adam Curtis' Power of Nightmares goes into this in depth!

Anonymous

I feel like you guys don't address that this film aims to be an emotional history of the states it follows, rather than some holistic historical retelling. As other commenters have pointed out, some of his other work fills these gaps. Enjoying your general critique of his film and the episode nonetheless, cheers!

Albert Koyra

I feel Curtis is one of those old British leftists you were devastated by Dengism and look back on 20th century socialist states with the extreme skepticism of someone who feels betrayed and deceived

KC

What was the book on the cultural revolution Brace recommended

L

shoegaze and a moodboard lmfaooooo

12 o Clock in the Midnight

Love the show. Feel this episode fell short tho. I think cutis was examining the way humans fail at understanding power and how to organise themselves. I feel you've been annoyed at the length and started watching it with a hyper critical eye. With the proto facisim comment, I felt he was giving a warning that facisim emerges when we are not proactive in pushing ideas forward. I also feel Mike judge isn't getting Curtis at all. Curtis makes it clear that the British empire was criminal. He shows the horror of it and how it led British people creating a fantasy identity to deal with the guilt.

prof. eucalyptus

I am so relieved that this isn't some bullshit laudatory take on Curtis, who is at best a mediocre director and a completely infantile "thinker". The only people impressed with anything he relays are anglos and yankees, who have nothing really going for them in terms of historical situatedness, so anything seems new or subversive. Anyone who thinks they take something away from his movies should watch any doc by Chris Marker (Sans Soleil, Le Fond De L'Air Est Rouge)and blow this baby bullshit out yer asses with some real historical and conjunctural analysis. Thank you Brace, Liz and Michael for calling the bluffs of this half-assed journo-doc

William Pepper
>>57587051

“This documentary maker is baby brain” “This documentary maker is galaxy brain” Bruh just go kayaking or something. If you don’t like something close your eyes 😂

Anonymous
>>57586283

Yeah I stopped listening after brace indicated he wasn't engaged with it and that Liz finished watching just before recording. Clearly not a very substantive basis for a critique of something as wide in its scope as the film. It shouldn't be above criticism but I think it's good enough to deserve a more earnest approach.

Tia Benedict

Discussion of Agency connections to the shooter is pure speculation.

Tia Benedict

No one pulls out drawers to look for bugs.

Tia Benedict

They use electronics.

Tia Benedict

A mass shooting for a secret operation on US soil? Seriously? Have you examined the list of the deceased and investigated their connections? And if you don’t know the privacy rules of flight manifests, why not? Haven’t you tried to look at the flight passengers list before making assassination assertions? I can’t listen anymore.

Tia Benedict
>>57588016

OK, gathering facts on the ground wouldn’t be too difficult here. You find out HOW MANY houses are sitting empty that have been bought from foreclosure sales. Then you compare it to the percentage of empty houses the shooter had in the same area. These are all accessible facts.

MD

Pretty amusing that the critique of the doc being monad obsessed and that it takes intentions at face value require taking Curtis at face value.

Anonymous

Terrible episode. Like reading a hot take twitter thread. This very podcast relies on monad-obsessed simplified narratives about complex historical events, often with far fewer actual facts behind them than an Adam Curtis documentary. Wanting a more concrete materialism viewpoint pretty ironic considering the lead-in for this discussion is wild speculation / conspiracy about a mass shooter being a CIA asset.

Dan Z

Wow very different take from the Chapo ep. (I guess they can only say so much with the creator present)

Null_null

Some proper criticisms mixed into an overall bad faith reading of the film.

MD

I also appreciate that you guys did a 3 hour episode of “oh all of these leads about Las Vegas head in contradictory directions and dead end, there’s no way to tell what was going on here.” And mike rolls in and is like “nah it was CIA. No evidence but it hangs together you know? Maybe they were assassinating someone. Check the helicopters bet u find the baddies there.”

Anonymous
>>57558985

Come for the CIA stuff, stay for the Pynchon and David Bowie

ClownBabee24
>>57588047

You seem very upset about what they themselves acknowledged as speculation. You work for Lockheed?

uya
>>57578386

why does that matter if he misrepresents reality and makes things up

uya
>>57574636

that literally is a childs view of history. That politicians in the us "chose" to give away democratic power to the free market. thats not how any of this works. The implication is that if they woke up in a different mood and didn't "choose" to do so things would be different which is untrue and not materialist. definition of a liberal take and exactly the crux of the pod's critique

uya
>>57564653

we all go through this at one point (or many) no worries comrade

Anonymous
>>57591104

The gun deal at a penthouse room in Vegas is just Hollywood thinking. Judge does miss sometimes, that’s the downside of being a paranoidish contrarian.

Bobby Volcano

Sorry everybody, but since Michael speculated about something on a podcast it is now the truth so anyone who disagrees will be sent to the TrueAnon-branded re-education camp. It's run by... Adam Curtis

uya

lot of haters and losers woke up in the middle of the night to listen to this one!

Anonymous

Anybody has more info on that Dengist plot they mention, China's aim to conquest the financial world and then socialise it? Would love to read more

William Brame

Soo glad y’all went hard against this fucker. His Chapo interview was pure softball

malamore

I've felt depressed and confused since watching the docs. I feel better now. thanks trueanon!

Chris Ryan
>>57590730

They got taken in entirely! And so did I via listening to the episode. Then I watched the documentary and I was like what the fuck is this?

Chris Ryan
>>57594359

Chapo needed this lesson. Honestly after listening to the fink episodes they should be finished with hero worship by now

DumbDumDumbDumb
>>57567894

Exterminate All the Brutes is hilariously bad compared to Peck's I Am Not Your Negro. Extremely liberal-brained and surface-level.

Anonymous

To truly understand Curtis and what he’s trying to convey to his audience, I think one would need to start with Century of the Self. I think his main takeaway there, and his latest, Cant Get You Outta My Head, is something to do with the fact that humans are far more fucking complex than those in “power” (sorry to use the word, but im pretty sure we can all agree this is tech companies, politicians, corporate-consumer high-ups), and that this whole system of trying to keep humans complacent is a cyclical shit show. I’m totally open to Curtis critiques, but I think you all went a little overboard with the criticism. As a consistent viewer of his work, he has always left a lot open for interpretation, rather than trying to be a documentarian presenting the cold hard facts.

Bobby Volcano

Made it through 6 minutes of the doc on YouTube, not having seen previous Adam Curtis docs. This is Koyaanisqatsi for rodents, yes?

Peter T.

Didnt think I needed to hear Curtis criticism but wow, I did

Ben Jammin

Fantastic episode thanks!

Anonymous

I’ll slaughter every sacred documentarian cow if you’ll just please fix Brace’s levels

hannah

As an aside, I really wanted to tour Frank Zappa's house before it sold in 2016, and it was v awkward to recover from bursting into "dad laughter" after "Brenden Williams, H&amp;H realty" answered the phone at the agent's office. Only "qualified buyers" could tour... O whatever, Brenden.

Carine

Brace in every episode coming up with a variation of "I have no fucking idea how to pronounce that word" makes me feel seen

Jimothy Realname
>>57603913

I'm definitely a Curtis fan. I really like his aesthetic, and I think he brings up some interesting ideas. But he is basically an idealist and not a materialist. So he can draw some very interesting connections at the surface and subsurface levels, but it's like he isn't capable of piercing through the bedrock and getting to the core of the matter. Thus he can never paint a complete picture. As an artist, though, he does a fantastic job.

Jimothy Realname
>>57604764

That's probably a bit excessive. He has a very good aesthetic style and a lot of good instincts, but he falters in analysis because he's a liberal

Benjamin Kelly

Im 12 years old everyone at my school likes Joe Rogan and Serial but this to me is REAL podcasting and perfect for skateboarding. Thanks Bryce and Liza!

Anonymous

incredible cold open. thanks, michael

Blanket!

You dont have to be a highroller to have a nice room or a meal comped (idk about 1000s in sushi tho) in a casino... that said ive only ever been to AC not vegas but i know people who get shit comped whodo spend a lot gambling but are not "high rollers" by any means

Pete

BBC helping to control the narrative

Chris Ryan

Must be rough to have failed to undergo ego death even once in your life. I come here to avoid the chapo comments section. Go text your parents, folks

Doug Welch

Bust out your Eno and 4AD records, it’s Adam Curtis! Maybe he will help us get rid of “corruption “!

Anonymous

Chris Ryan is...Brace? I hope so, otherwise, feeling sorry for you dude — cant imagine anyone else who would want to put this much useless smarmy energy into the comment thread. And if this is Brace, do whatcha gotta do. Love the podcast.

beach_bum123

Whole episode in bad faith tbh - what is the TrueAnon project exactly? Aside from the production of weekly black pills? Been listening since the first episode but gotta say recently this show is as listless as a recent college grad

laihall

I heard a interview with Adam gorightly recently where he made a really funny aside about Adam Curtis getting in touch about a doc on conspiracies and following up a few times, then ghosted him and used like 1% of the readings he got from him lolllw

Chris Ryan
>>57614782

Thanks Andy! Yes this is Brace and I do appreciate all the good work that you do for the Belden Program. Please leave all the fully cleansed and rinsed skulls at 3040 South Embarcadero North.

laihall

Man people in here do be loving Adam Curtis 👀 his historical docs are neat like bitter lake and SOME aspects of the game or whatever, but his sociological navel gazing is so brutal. I think British laroucheism is an apt description for the way the spiked set seems to have rubbed off on his thinking. And big ups for pointing out the fucking wild *britishness* of his analysis of peoples whose nations were former colonized by his disgusting nation Sometimes i get sort of lost in the irony damaged and tongue in cheek takes of the left pod world but it’s seriously a relief to have principled and earnest critique of what is a seriously historically incorrect and naive AT BEST doc by a guy who so much of the middling left drools over

Tron Quip

Git yur bona fide definitive Adam Curtis skewer here folks. Step right on up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bX3F7uTrg

uleg0

Brace “the letterbox” Belden

Chris Ryan
>>57615011

Officer Miller... I fucked your daughter. She’s pregnant. You have bigger fish to fry

Chris Ryan

I’ve probably got the biggest dick of anyone in this thread but if anybody wants to send me their dick go ahead. Mine is way bigger tho

Anonymous
>>57615973

Do you really think people who object to this episode must be drooling Adam Curtis fans though? I didn’t think CGYOOMH was very good but I also didn’t like this at all. I feel like I didn’t read the same thread as you for real, like is that really what you see? Not asking to be pedantic but I notice how online it seems to run like: someone gets popular, a critic comes in saying it’s terrible actually and people who like it are morons basically, all conversation becomes about who’s right. The critic gets some fame from making the attack. Conversation about the actual work disappears and gets the feud-stink attached to it. Like now if I want to reference to Mayfair set I’ll have to “prove” I’m not neoliberal. Ifind it depressing. Also, as someone also recovering from English colonization I think it’s weird when Americans point fingers at England for anything really. Like you both murder and steal enough to be indistinguishable to me at this point.

Jack Nancy

lots of people upset about critiques of Adam Curtis lol.

Jack Nancy

Brace, I played the wind game also. We used to make each other pass out all the time.

A

Imagine arguing in here

Anonymous

Y'all are babies, episode was great. I liked Adam Curtis's series but it is far from above criticism and this episode did a very good job laying those out in a way that never felt too mean or dismissive.

JD

WAIT WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT ELLIOT SMITH?!?

Anonymous

is anyone here after they took down all the bootleg feeds

Mike Bilbe-Taylor

Liz's comment at 47:30 about Curtis representing what he is critiquing was my takeaway. Especially in the last two episodes.

Welfare state

Holy shit the dudes here defending Curtis are legit just writing the Rick and Morty copypasta

James Keegan

Anyone got any recommendations for stuff on MK Ultra? I basically just know about the very tip of the iceberg with that.

BruceInAdelaide
>>57625618

that is the problem with everything that can be evidenced, and it is a fair bit, about MK Ultra, what can be shown to exist is only a tip of the iceberg.

BruceInAdelaide

Liz, Brace and Michael are largely correct about the whole "Spiked" / Living Marxism crew. They are very odd, but now and then they do skewer 'cultural marxism' very accurately. BTW, i would argue if you gather everything described as 'cultural marxism', you will find a lot of 'identity' driven misdirections away from why Marx and Engels focussed on class struggle as central. Nothing like 'cultural marxism' exists in Karl Marx's writings.

Anonymous
>>57585631

Wait but real talk what song was that sample it’s driving me BONKERS

Martin Kasey

No sane person in 2003 would have taken the neocons at face value?? That was basically the definition of sanity in 2003

Anonymous

Absolutely adore Michael S Judge. He somehow makes the worst things in the world enjoyable to listen to

Jonathan Gear

"I wouldn't consider China socialism" very unbased

Anonymous

Pls someone tell me what song plays when sweet Liz says “all girls love shoegaze and a mood board” at 44:56, it is driving me nuts

Jack Nancy

oh also, this doc series, How Yukon Moved the Mountains, rocks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naDMFxOggFg&amp;list=PLCr5Mmf-b6BDFZM_Rs8Ur67KqKNoPweCh&amp;index=2

Sam Bidmead

Admittedly this Curtis seems to have run out of ideas a bit with this new one but century of the self and The Trap are really important pieces or work. They confirmed things I suspected telling me what I already knew in my case :)

Anonymous

Man this episode was so good. As someone who found TrueAnon through an offhand comment on MSJ's Death Is Just Around the Corner it's always a blast when they cross over.

Laura

be still, my twisted 🖤

skipmur

I've not listened to the episode yet but Adam Curtis is shit, he solely appeals to middle class art hoes who stink of body odor. Fuck that dude and his dumb voice.

Laura
>>57560352

you really need to listen to the d/c back eps dude

Anonymous

Yes! I needed this

Faye

Enjoyed the episode but at the risk of sounding like a huge nerd, didn't Liz reference Century of the Self in her Baffler piece? That's how I found out about it haha

Anonymous

Fucking love Mabo gao

Anonymous
>>57623550

Legit crit that was. Part of me wonders if that’s partially why Curtis seems so convinced that no one has any real ideas about possible futures. Fucking Miyazaki has boatloads and he makes cartoons for five year olds. It’s a very gen X position be the thing you hate while hating the things. I suspect Curtis is trying to goad someone younger, braver, and more foolish than himself to actually commit to something he inwardly wants but outwardly finds cringe- to finally do something. I sympathize of course but he will obviously not be a leader of any real change. Rather he’s aesthetician of the recent past and that has value for sure - but not too much power. And That’s ok.

Anonymous

Amazing episode!!

Katie

this episode is good

Anonymous

A real banger of a top-quality episode! Also, really interesting to get a more critical view of Curtis' work (like Brace, I too am very fond of it on a strictly aesthetic level - but the points made in the episode provide some real food for thought).

Simpler name please

What's the book about the Cultural Revolution Brace mentioned?

Anonymous

Can you guys stop making fun of Bright Eyes.

Anonymous

Bright Eyes are a trans icon

Sarah Rea
>>57677056

Century of the Self is good. Don't know what happened after that. But like they said, he's fine at recognizing and profiling cultural phenom but his artsy super powers fail to do political analysis.

Gulb

Thank you for this.

Anonymous

Never got much out of Adam Curtis. Hipster nature docs with a wannabe John Peel soundtrack. This one makes me outright furious though, which usually happens when people so confidently lie about the JFK assassination. Quarantine in England must have been harsh, because Adam Curtis appears to have disappeared up his own anus.

Anonymous

Seriously where do I file a complaint. Daniel Sheehan interviewed the mafia lieutenants who worked the JFK job. We have decades of tireless research. I had family who worked in intelligence at the time, and even they didn’t buy the lone nut theory.

Anonymous

And on top of it all pillaging Aphex Twin’s ambient material and using it as spooky villain music for Jiang Qing. Adam Curtis is a hack.

Gavin Farrell

Nice work. Also, really good introspection re: podcasting back in episode 147. Podcasting is useful to inform people, but at a certain point it becomes an echo chamber and emotional venting/culture war outlet rather than any kind of mobilization or organizational tool. Nice to see candid and honest self-analysis. Subscribed for the Adam Curtis episode!

Anonymous

I thought I was crazy when I watched Hypernormalization and thought it made zero sense and was made by a 19 year old with an uncle he convinces to do the voiceovers

Gavin Farrell

C'mon guys. At about the 1:00 mark, Liminov is in there because it is a warning that the easiest organizational line is simple nationalism. Adam Curtis warns that if we fail to reform the current system, it is likely that Limonov-esque highly nationalistic type characters will rise. And we are seeing ripples of that in rising far-right groups in Europe and the US.

Tom

Liz was open about not understanding where Curtis is coming from while the boys seemed not to care. In fairness Curtis is, I believe, equally unaware. He is typical of a kind of middle-class leftist intellectual that dominated British universities when I and he were students. These play-pretend communists are similar to counter-culture boomers in the USA: children of comfortably-off professional-class parents who have absolutely no need for or real connection to emancipatory economic struggle. They were never really dissidents. Even for those who were 100% sincere, its ultimate purpose was to define themselves in relation to their parents' generation. For others it was just joining a peer-group, making friends and getting laid. In both UK and USA cases, they mostly ended up working in the service of the status quo. They read the NYT/Guardian, hate Trump, and quite a few of them wet their beak at that bastion of status quo, the BBC. They are direct beneficiaries of the security (economic and other kinds) that the established power provides so their critique of it is either limited to reform or ends up in doublethink, as in Curtis case. He has not been able to step far enough aside to see the horrible truth,as indeed most people have not. So I see Curtis as a kind of preacher to his own cohort. His films are sermons to himself and his own group of people stuck in their place in the PMC, confused by their role in the corruption surrounding them, encouraging them to think a little more freely, understanding a bit more, but not so much that it terrifies the socks off them or pushes them into denial. Don't despise him for it. Have some compassion and then maybe you can enjoy the films for what they are. And let us also take care to consider to what extent what we do, our political beliefs, speech and acts, are not similarly the way we define ourselves in relation/opposition to our parents' generation.

Gavin Farrell
>>57725337

And c'mon. at 1:15 it should be pretty obvious that the scene re: the British Governor leaving Hong Kong, with the BBC voiceover talking about how the Chinese are crying and weeping about their Imperial friends leaving was to show how the British still in 1997 were indulging in imperial fantasies of how they were benevolent rulers of their colonies. The juxtaposition of that with the Hong Kong British cop asking for chemical mace and beating the heck out of a native in his bunk should have made that pretty clear to you.

ChlamydiaPuppy2

This was a fab episode, and edifying, big thanks from italo disco horny jail to Liz Brace, guest Mike and of course YC... y’all made my morning

Jimothy Realname

I believe they were referring to Synanon, which was like a rehab cult

Gavin Farrell
>>57726083

I'm pretty sure Curtis does see the horrible truth. He won't go as far as saying 9/11 was an inside job, or that the CIA killed Kennedy, but from his work and interviews it does seem clear that he sees the Western democracies are not really democracies, but are trending hard towards capitalist techno-fascism run by monied elites.

Anonymous

I absolutely agree that this is Curtis's least coherent film, and that, in searching for a cohesiveness he can't quite establish, he makes lazy recourse to cloudy abstractions--"power" started to sound like pure phonics after a while, devoid of sense. I am a fan of Curtis's work, but I often feel--like our beloved hosts I think--that he is frustratingly evasive, that his films fall victim to their own collage-like negative capability. And yet I think that our hosts here sort of made the same error of which they accuse Curtis--they take him at his word, appealing to interviews and his voice-over narration. It seems unfair to criticize Curtis this way since he is a filmmaker, after all, working in a visual medium; and it seems too easy to simply say his "aesthetics are on point," as Liz does (though admittedly she rightly sees that this style renders a hypnotic, dream -like effect, which, I would argue, emulates the very emotional states he studies). First of all, it should be said that Curtis is sly, and funny, and not nearly as blandly journalistic as he's made out to be here. His images often undercut his narration. Michael Judge misreads one moment along these lines: Curtis is not endorsing the footage of Hong Kong citizens "grieving" for the departure of the British--it was pretty clear to me that Curtis is in fact mocking this patronizing British attitude. His images of Blair also portray him as a bumbling fool, basically--not some grand master of ideas. This is all too say that--yes--I think our hosts are right that Curtis is evasive and perhaps a little too ambiguous at times given the political themes he's surveying (the distinction Judge makes, via Pound, between opacity and obfuscation is a good one, by the way). But his images and music often seem to satirically undercut some of the grand narrativizing he's taken to task for here. Finally, I'll take Curtis at his word: he's never claimed to be a Marxist of any sort. He identifies, I think, as a progressive--okay, fine, vague--and has little interest, it seems, in making programatically political films. But I don't really want to take him at his word; I enjoy the eerie dream-states of his films.

Dan Greene

You've heard of Adam Curtis, but what about Adam Coitus

DH

Michael is way too good at voices. I only realized it was him 3/4 through the cold open lmao

DH
>>57774106

I don't know anything about adam curtis and I haven't watched the documentary they're talking about, but I'm glad Liz, Brace &amp; Mike came together to make you all Mad

MD
>>57635482

You ever talk to a party member? They’d tell you the same thing.

malpertuis

remember when bright eyes &amp; Winona Ryder were together &amp; everyone was all 'ewwww'

Sparrow

brace &amp; liz go on rev left radio

Anonymous

love the Eno intro patriots

Joey

Fantastic episode!! MSJ!!! &lt;33333

Anonymous

Appreciate you laying into the portrayal of Thornley. Extremely interesting character whose testimony and life shouldn't be dismissed.

Alexandria Henderson

Heard you’re getting harassed for expressing an opinion about somebody on the BBC? You’re literally communists why are they surprised?? Great episode guys thanks for telling your true opinion and not being a sycophant bc he’s famous. ❤️ you guys have inspired me to get out and actually live my values and use my body and labor for the struggle over the past year with the workers instead of merely complaining on Reddit after work at my corporate job.

babygurl

I was dreading listening to this episode in case you guys were super into this documentary (which is crazy trash and glosses over the history of colonialism/imperialism at every turn and demonstrates profound misreadings of historical events and personalities). i was talking to someone about the popularity of this doc and we have a theory that it is the liberal seizing of the powers of facist mystification. anyway THANK GOD fuck this adam curtis trash

John McElroy

The three of you together (Michael, Liz and Brace) is podcasting gold.

Gavin Farrell
>>57916049

Glosses over the history of colonialism/imperialism? I guess you skipped over the long segment on the British Opium wars and the shots of British concentration camps for black people in Africa? As far as documentaries available in mainstream media sources (BBC), I don't think you're going to do much better than Adam Curtis.

Anonymous

And here I thought I was the only lunatic who listened to episodes multiple times...

babygurl
>>57916049

Oh right this track record explains why Curtis quotes from people like Richard Hofstadter with very little irony: ". . .the first settlers had come from europe to america to flee from the corruption of power in the old world. . . " The documentary is littered with this kind of obfuscating bullshit and he provides no interpretive frame for these quotations for his viewers.

Anonymous

What was the mobo gao book brace mentioned? I cant find it

Ethan Hunt

The Adam Curtis fans should read this pretty damning critique linking Curtis to Trotskyist turned right-libertarian Frank Furedi: https://web.archive.org/web/20131108200009/http://plover.net/~bonds/pandorasdocs.html

Colin Helpio

Why'd you have to hype me up with that intro like that 😭✊

Lesley Anne Noelle

Amarrakka is like ‘Club El Mocambo’ ….kin-da. I didn’t finish shit.

Anonymous

The opening vignette to this episode is just SO INCREDIBLY GOOD. I have long since lost count of how many times I have re-listened to it. It's almost better than AdCur himself, which *really* is saying something. Even after hearing all the objections against him in this episode (which are VERY convincing and reasonable objections, mind you), I still remain convinced that he is a GREAT capacity as far as the strictly aesthetic side of it all is concerned. Also: it was not before now (very recently) that I sort of understood what the term "shoegaze" (used in a musical context) meant, and I'm really stoked about suddenly having a much shorter and easier-to-use alternative to my previosuly-favored descriptor "kinda sad but very beautiful music of the type you tend to hear in Adam Curtis movies."