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Episode 73: Phase III (Patreon)

Published:
2020-06-07 08:02:18
Edited:
2024-02-27 03:48:51
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Content

We talk through the events of the past week and take stock of the civil unrest sweeping the nation

On Social Sadism by China Miéville

Files

Comments

loicdupre

Could you also add a link to that Lenin text you read, please?

Lucien

More Theory Cast, please!

Will Geisler

Hey! I'm from Oly!! Brace is super not wrong

Hether Fortune (edited)

Comment edits

2021-07-23 01:00:39 thanks for this one i needed it <3
2020-06-07 14:10:51 thanks for this one i needed it <3

thanks for this one i needed it <3

Johannes Liess
>>38244790

State and Revolution is great stuff, Liz read from this text, tho: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1902/sep/01.htm

Johannes Liess

Great episode, guys. Ending with Lenin + Melville was top notch for this level headed assessment of the situation. Helped me a lot to get a sense of what is happening in the States right now. Really appreciate it.

Jack

This reminds me of the method used by Dionysius The Areopagite to define the supreme reality through a series of negations. “God is not this, God is not that, God is not the other, etc.” In the same way the artist removes stone to reveal the sculpture underneath, saying what this moment in history is UNLIKE is imperfect but still a fascinating and insightful method. It’s a breath of cool (zone) air amid all the frantic comparisons!

DumbDumDumbDumb

Mad ups for referencing Mieville, subscribe to Salvage if you can, they're primo theory

Anthony D Cox

Music is great in this one. Is that an MS-20?

Hannah

Missed u angels

Jack

“Soldier” comes from Italian soldato, past participle of soldare, from soldo (“money, military pay”) 👀

Matelda

I don't know anyone working for police/prison abolition who doesn't understand it as part of the abolition of class society. So I'm not sure who that rant was directed towards

Woke Batou

Thanks for posting the Mieville piece! I've read his fiction and October and really appreciate further reading

Taz

The bit of Lenin on adventurism helped me put words to so much of what I have been worried about. Action for actions sake. Great, great ep

Alex

Liz is so fuckin smart dude

E

Brilliant

guy incognito

the reform vs abolition thing is a strategy to keep anti-police movements from becoming reformist. it pushes people away from the more useless reforms like body cameras and bias training which, because of being palatable, put activists on a path to progressive careerism. keeps people working on things like defunding the police and opposing new prisons. these struggles educate people on the fundamental contradictions of their city and state governments. imo its the only way people consistently go from being into criminal justice reform to being anti-capitalist. anyway having a movement dedicated to reducing the scope of the police plus the carceral and surveillance state hardly seems at odds with the struggle to overthrow the bourgeois state

Behold 666

It fucking took a recovering drug addict and a Critical Theory PhD dropout to finally describe this moment in a compelling way. Fantastic episode.

Claire Stenvik

Could you please unlock this one? Seems a shame to hide this one behind patreon

Behold 666
>>38266299

Pleae do unlock it because I already sent it to my parents!

Conner Canatsey

Loved this episode, Brace's rant was mint.

lililililili
>>38257257

trust me there are a lot of ppl out there demanding it as a here-and-now reform, esp anarchists

lililililili
>>38264047

i can't speak for the pod, but my hesitancy towards immediate police reform is that they serve the function of upholding contemporary class relations, so reforming them, even in a way that reduces their power, doesn't remove the underlying class tensions that require them to operate the way they do. part of the reason existing reforms have, for the most part, been worse for civilians than if they hadn't been enacted, is because they were demands made without any broader class-focused reforms by non-political actors who mostly just navigate the NGO market and aren't so much interested in winning political victories as they are securing their funding. additionally, markets like to create new markets, so if there isn't an explicitly political workers' movement demanding a whole host of reforms that attack the base, a broad coalition demanding reforms that only attack the superstructure are likely to result in market-based reforms to the police, which for the most part means domestic mercenaries will be much more common. the strategy brace mentions of moving police budgets towards social services and infrastructure could work, but if the focus is "reduce the police budget" and there's no meaningful political base to push for the other half of that, u might see some jurisdictions where that strategy does win out (my guess would be the rich ones), but you will most definitely see others where the cops get defunded so all the power players just hire ex-cops as mercenaries. thats my take at least, my only qualification for talking abt this is i used to do this kind of criminal justice NGO work when i was doing undergrad research and i saw it go absolutely nowhere for years

Will Cronkhite

fluent french speaker here. brace, I will beat the shit out of you for what you have done

Alexander Lawrie

Yaaas!! More theory guys, Liz smashing it! Would love to hear your thoughts on No Shortcuts and Jane's ideas

Stafford H,

Honestly this was way better than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to pessimism pessimism pessimism.

Stafford H,

I would 100% support a off shoot series of breaking down Marxist theory. I come from a family of right wingers, my adult life has been spent working in warehouses with right wingers. I’ve only read Marxist ideology alone and would love a dialog (albeit a one sided) about Marxist theory.

cheep_hardware (edited)

Comment edits

2021-07-23 01:00:26 The last quote re: Hotel Montana had me tearing up. Love it Brace/Liz/ChomskyHonk &lt;3
2020-06-08 03:01:01 The last quote re: Hotel Montana had me tearing up. Love it Brace/Liz/ChomskyHonk <3

The last quote re: Hotel Montana had me tearing up. Love it Brace/Liz/ChomskyHonk <3

Neill Martin

I read the China Mielville piece and I can definitely see why you return to it, I think you will have all of your listeners thinking on it often as well.

Nick Fredman

Great discussion. Here’s a recent piece by Hawzhin Azeez from Rojava on the “abolition of police” (maybe more accurately, the creation of a revolutionary police after a capitalist state collapse ) http://hawzhin.press/2020/06/01/how-to-abolish-the-police-lessons-from-rojava/

MD

Count me in for advocating an unlock - would like to send it both to pessimists and adventurists in my life.

Kane

I feel like you guys dawdled around and downplayed what’s actually happening right now, particularly just throwing away Seattle and Portland. The Seattle police have now for the 5th time used so much tear gas that people have to evacuate their apartments. There have been clashes with the police, wholly instigated by the police, every single night for ten nights in both cities. Two people have been arrested during the day, at home, for social media posts, and for taking videos of brutality. You are letting us down not knowing about this.

Jeff Dunn

You should have really looked into what’s happening in Seattle. Shit is really fucked. Felt like you phoned this in. All three of you.

Peter Miller
>>38264047

it's important to call for defunding the police and call for funding to go towards peoples need like housing, education, health, etc. I like the slogan defund the police much more than "abolish the police," because abolishing the police can only happen under communism. The slogan "abolish the police" might as well just be "abolish the police so bezos can police us all with robots and mercenaries." The slogan abolish the police is adventurist and ultra leftist.

lililililili
>>38264047

@ peter i definitely agree w yr take on abolition, but what im saying is that unless the call for defunding is part of a series of workers' demands in a workers' political movement, not this kind of hodge-podge coalition liz and brace spent a long time criticizing, you may end up with those mercenaries anyway, alongside a severely weakened police department. that could also happen and would still be in capital's interest because even if workers do seize the state, the state itself may not be an effective means of suppressing the bourgeoise at that point, bc it'd no longer have a monopoly on the use of violence. without practical calls for redistribution of wealth and massive federal spending on social programs and infrastructure, i would be very skeptical and discerning when analyzing these calls to defund, especially in the kind of political and economic climate we're in now.

lililililili
>>38288334

but i mean im not abt to get mad at podcasters lol u just gotta notice it, disagree, and move on

Kane
>>38288177

You think that’s harsh? You sound like a baby

Kane
>>38288177

“Fuck off” for what, insinuating that a podcast episode wasn’t so great? Right back at you dipshit

L

Need more of this brace energy in my life

nemo
>>38257257

the ppl demanding it now are doing so as a first step in a series of demands that will accomplish that goal if acheived. dont underestimate minneapolis activists lol black visions collective knows what the fuck its doing

lock

Brace, homie, you gotta read up on some history of policing shit. This isn't the only thing Lenin got wrong. As a statist he's of course invested in naturalizing the existence of the police as an aspect of society. And he helped to found one of the most brutal police states thats ever existed. The distinction between "policing" institutions (esp in the US) before and after roughly the early nineteenth century isn't to be glossed over. Good episode in other ways.

Jeff Dunn
>>38288334

I’m gonna criticize them cuz I paid $5 and they’re ostensibly on our side so I’d like to see some support I guess. It fucking sucks watching my friends and family get gassed by the police every night and brace and Liz say “yeah I don’t really know what’s happening in Seattle and Portland”

notadingdong

I do wish y’all would flesh out your thoughts and ideas more before special eps like these. I didn’t get anything out of this episode that I hadn’t heard or thought about before. Which maybe isn’t a huge issue, but I don’t think this conversation really contributed or provoked much.

Peter Miller
>>38315934

Lenin was totally right. You can't win a revolution without a police force for the working class and an army for the working class. We wouldn't have Socialist Cuba today without its socialist police force and army.

Peter Miller
>>38288334

How was it Liberal? They were good Marxist Leninists in this podcast.

lock
>>38315934

If you're into police, armies, and states then we've got a foundational difference of politics. But either way, insufficient nuance in the presentation. The role of policing before and after industrialization and chattel slavery was fundamentally different. And anyway, maybe you can't have an authoritarian socialist state without an army and police, but is that state worth fighting for? Why not NOT reproduce tyrants and secret police? Seems like lack of imagination. Damn here I am goin off in the comments.

Peter Miller
>>38315934

You have to have Socialist police and a Socialist army. Otherwise the Socialist state is crushed by foreign imperialists and internal capitalists.

Peter Miller
>>38315934

For all the Soviet Unions faults, I think the free healthcare, education, paying just 8 percent of ones income on rent, and the right to a job, were pretty good. And the collapse of the soviet union was one of the biggest Tragedies of the 20th century.

lock
>>38315934

Interesting, I would have thought the millions and millions dead from the gulag, forced resettlement and forced collectivization, and extrajudicial murders would have been one of the greatest tragedies of the twentieth century, but maybe I'm just salty cause they executed nearly everyone I thought was cool.

Alex
>>38266299

Yes please unlock it, I will wrangle some TrueAnon converts with it.

Steve

Really loved this episode. Helped process a lot of what I was feeling/thinking. Thanks guys.

Kent Morey

This one was too scattered. Choose an issue or 2 related to the movement and concentrate on it. It's what you do best.

ScorPWNok
>>38254024

the cuts during Liz's readings near the end are so good, do you have them posted anywhere?

will h

cried at the end

Tubes
>>38254024

Yung Chomsky, ahve you released the song that plays when Liz reads the China piece? It's so fucking good.

CK
>>38288177

Do you know of any articles that cover the arrests? I want to read up on this but haven’t been able to find any info.

Jeffery Harrell

thanks for reading from that mieville piece, gorgeous

Charlie

What was the Badiou piece Brace mentions?

lililililili
>>38288334

@peter just a few points felt pretty idealistic, esp the idea that the conversation around "defund the police" could take on a positive class character. felt like they weren't paying much attention to how the market's reacting to that demand. also not a great deal of criticism for BLM either, which should be looked into a little more but might get them cancelled bc the ppl who follow the show are freaks (would actually be v interested in an ep on that, wondering what they could uncover there cuz it's all fucked up). at the same time, there's a lot of angles to sift thru and i think two weeks is probably not enough to do due diligence, but it was something they had to squeeze out to feed the porcine masses, so i don't blame them. for the most part im on board but there were just a few little bits i take issue with. i thought this joker had picked up on some of the shoddier analysis too but it turns out he's just having a rough go of it and is taking it out on two podcasters who don't know him. c'est la vie.

lililililili
>>38315934

as an ex-abolitionist who did the same readings you did, lenin was right

lililililili
>>38315934

oh and as the daughter of two eastern bloc parents fuck you lol, the collapse of the soviet union was one of the worst things to ever happen to them. my mom was 14 when she watched bucharest turn into a warzone from her bedroom, do you know what that does to a person? not to even mention the shit that came later. go larp as a revolutionary somewhere else friend

lock
>>38315934

Ok so I'm definitely digging this up months later. For some reason I didn't see this last two things a couple months ago, and for a silly reason I was looking back at this exchange and wanted to add a some things: 1. Living through a civil war is super shitty and traumatizing and I don't think that was great for your parents or for anyone else who has experienced that. That also shouldn't insulate the Soviet Union from critique. 2. Sadly I'm not 17, and I've been working shitty jobs for decades. What i was flippantly (poorly) pointing towards in the exchange with the other person is that I don't think the "right to a job" is something worth struggling for. Meaningful work is a human need, yes, but that shouldn't be conflated with the right to a job, any job. Too much experience has informed all of us on how capitalist and communist orders alike can create miserable soul crushing jobs in abundance, and will certainly secure us the "right" to be exploited in them. Maybe responding to an ad hominem with something genuine is foolish, but I guess the whole reason I'm interested in commenting on this thing is because I think the show is great and also think the community could use more anti-authoritarian critique. As a non-ex-abolitionist, I also think de-naturalizing the police and the prison industrial complex is necessary. If we limit ourselves creatively to the paths set out by brutal murderous industrial statists, whether they be communist or capitalist, we're just going to reproduce the world as it has been and end up in a worse fuckin hellscape than we already live in.

coughsoda

dogshit ep

Peter Slattery

What's the piece of music that plays ove Liz's readings at the end? Beautiful stuff.

danica pantic

I’m slowly listening to all of your episodes, and I’m on this one. I’ve just gotten past the intro, but I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving words to something I’ve been trying to puzzle out for months now. It’s been so overwhelming to only really see reactionary commentary of all of the clusterfucks that are ongoing in this country, and listening to this discussion is lifting an entire boulder off my chest.

Julian

cheep_hardware

i kinda just keep seeing your comments, and i think you're lame. haven't really agreed with any of them, haven't seen any actual content or thoughtful critique.

cheep_hardware
>>45296375

hahaha not annoying me, but if that's all it takes to satisfy you, sure, i'm annoyed. if only you could offer motivation and satisfaction to other ppl like I do

Franklyn Cain

just now listening to this ep and your summary of the present state of 2020/21 around 42 min is so clarifyingly honest :)

K Barlas
>>45296375

They sure are two intelligent people, you're right there. Might tell you something about the conclusions they draw

K Barlas
>>38280630

You gotta check out Red Menace man, it's basically exactly this