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Patreon has responded re: the Sargon takedown. Other options to support me (Patreon)

Published:
2018-12-18 08:49:54
Edited:
2018-12-18 08:53:48
Imported:
2022-05

Content

https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf
A lot of people are angry about this. I ask that if you plan to stop using Patreon, you please take a look at my alternative support options. I have lost a lot of patrons over the past few days and a lot of those people didn't just remove their pledges, but deleted their accounts, making it impossible for me to contact them to give them this information. So I wanted to make you aware of the other options in advance, if you plan to delete your account or remove your pledge. Please keep in mind that while other support options offer monthly recurring donations, none of them are per video, so keep the math in mind if you move. All the information is in the following link. Thank you.
https://support.logicked.com/ 

Comments

Anonymous

Thanks, I plan to leave patreon soon. It's good to know.

Anonymous

I don't geddit. Patreon is a payment platform and a private business. Those people who are leaving Patreon are demonstrating what? Support for freedom of speech? How, by denying Patreon the right to detemine who uses their platform? I didn't think people were such snowflakes.

Anonymous
>>18120799

They aren't denying Patreon on anything, merely taking their business somewhere else. It's nothing more than the free market at work. You piss off your customers, you lose business. Patreon has proven they are ideologically minded and anti-free speech and a lot of people don't want to support an organization that applies extremist political values to things they honestly have no business trying to police. Not to mention that, like all people who promote social justice, Patreon are a bunch of hypocrites and liars that only apply their warped standards to people they don't like and don't even follow their own terms of service. It you can't see the problem with a company who's only job is to be a platform for people to send money to the people they like deciding who is and isn't worthy of having access to a livelihood based on their beliefs then you might want to sit back and consider the ramifications of private corporations and banks deciding that they can just make someone unable to financially survive for having the 'wrong' values. It's an incredibly disturbing precedent and one that has to be nipped in the bud immediately.

Anonymous
>>18120799

Patreon's "only job is to be a platform..." - who gets to determine that? You or the owners of a company operating in the free market? It seems incongruous to me that you support the free market but Patreon can't operate as they see fit. If I had been a supporter of Sargon I'm not going to respond by kicking Logicked in the balls - and plenty of people have.

Anonymous
>>18120799

The max exodus of people from Patreon harming the other creators using the platform is unfortunate, I agree. I personally plan to keep my sub here until there's a viable alternative but I can completely understand others not wanting to support this site any further. The problem, which you point out by saying that this has harmed Logicked and others, is that there is a dearth of other options. Sargon moved to Subscribe star and paypal immediately defunded them solely for that reason. As much as I want to support Logicked, there is a much bigger societal ill that has been exposed by this event and many people are taking a stand. Unfortunately, all battles have collateral damage and until something new comes along to replace Patreon the creators that use this site will likely suffer. Fortunately, there are already people at work doing just that, so hopefully it will be a temporary situation.

Anonymous
>>18120799

Yeah, I'm going to have to jump in here and say that Douglas has it about right. Patreon, like all platforms has a TOS, and if you break that TOS, you gets the consequences. There are two real issues here. One is that a lot of alt-righters still don't get that Hate Speech is not Free Speech. If you are inciting violence against, say in the case of Mr. Carl Benjamin, women gamers, you get to pay the consequences. The other is this: A large tenet of the Right is that companies are people. Okay, fine, it's wrong on so many levels, but it's what's happening right now. Given that, the Right supports businesses refusing services to, say, gay people that wants them a fine and tasty wedding cake. In that case, the Right is arguing for "freedom of religion", or a warped version of the idea, and that those freedoms apply to individuals and the business is an individual. Okay, still morally wrong, but again, that's what the Right wants. Taking those points into account, you can't then argue that Patreon, Facebook, and others can't refuse service to customers because whatever reason they come up with. Distilled, you can't say that businesses can refuse service except when you disagree with it. The Right laid the tracks, and now their train is going to have to follow those tracks off the cliff they denied was ever there. So, Phillip - Patreon isn't anti-free-speech. They are just following the current laws which say that they are a private business, and they can service, or not service, anyone they choose. Patreon is just making their decision based on the cost-benefit analysis that tells them servicing misogynistic, anti-democratic, fear-mongering, and obviously racist customers who are prone to bouts of legally-defined speech that is not protected by the first amendment, will hurt them more in the long run than will kicking them off right now. And, Logicked has not stepped into that fight and therefor should not suffer for it. Logicked could have probably made my points in a more artful and cogent manner, but I think I got the main ideas in a somewhat logical framework. Or not. Hi Logicked! How are the cats? :)

Anonymous
>>18120799

Not unlike some banks refusing to do business with marijuana startups in states that have made such business legal

Anonymous
>>18120799

Robin. This is true. I think in that case, though, the banks are more worried about Federal Law which still criminalizes the use of cannabis. The banks literally can't touch those funds until the federal law catches up to the state laws. Even if the federal snafu didn't exist, the banks are still well within their right to refuse services to anyone without consequence, so long as they uphold the FDIC rules so they don't lose their insurance.

Anonymous
>>18120799

Okay, wow. The sheer amount of outright lies, disinformation, and straw men in your reply is kind of staggering. But since there are apparently others out there who are just as misinformed as you or need to protected from believing that anything that you just uttered has any basis in reality, I'm going to break this down point by point. First, basically everything you said about Sargon was completely false. He did not break Patreon's TOS at any point. In fact, if you go do some research and look at the videos he's made going over the email responses he got from Patreon regarding his account termination, they flat out state the reason he was removed from the platform. Hell, just read their response in the link posted on this damn page. He said the N-word on a live stream. Of course, he did so while talking to /actual/ alt-right white supremacists in order to use their own bigoted views against them by comparing their own behavior to their twisted idea of how minorities act. But context doesn't matter, right? He said a naughty word from the no-no list and that makes him a horrible person! On top of that - inciting violence against women gamers? The fuck are you on about? If you're referring to his heavy criticism of Anita Sarkeesian, she hasn't been relevant in months if not years. Also, criticism isn't violence. Sarkeesian was a moron and a con-artist and got rightly called out on it. Second, no one has said Patreon broke any laws or doesn't have the right to run their platform how they want. If they want to break their own rules and kick people off who haven't even violated their own TOS, they can. If they want to base their business relationships with people based on political ideology, they can. What we are saying is that this sets a very dangerous precedent because it allows people who control your money, your literal ability to purchase goods and services and thus survive, to decide that they can simply cut you off because they don't like your politics. You might think this is all great and good right now because the people doing this shit are people you happen to agree with politically. But any student of history knows that the pendulum always swings back the other way and every weapon you create to use against your enemies will eventually be turned on you. Think it'll still be great when the right is dominating again, as they inevitably will, and you can't even buy a house or food because you aren't spouting Republican rhetoric? Third, yes, Patreon is very clearly anti-free speech. Saying 'you can't say that or you're a bad person' is the very fucking definition of anti-free speech. There is no such thing as hate speech. That is a completely made up term that came from the far left in the past decade when this social justice shit started to really kick off. It exists solely so the people on that side of the fence can claim criticism is somehow morally reprehensible - but only against the people they say. It's perfectly fine to be bigoted against white people or straight people and even a cursory examination of some of the accounts who haven't been kicked off Patreon yet shows their obvious hypocrisy when it comes to 'fighting discrimination'. There are no laws in the US that protect people from being called slurs or insults. Freedom of speech is universal, save for a few edge cases where obvious harm could ensue such as shouting fire in a crowded theater or inciting direct violent action against someone. And no, calling someone a moron for having stupid ideas isn't inciting violence, not even if they happen to be a woman or a minority. Furthermore, the very concept of free speech defies your ridiculous claims. Inoffensive speech doesn't need to be protected. That law was put in place to ensure that everyone's ideas get heard, no matter how awful they sound. The only way we advance as a society is to have conversations and sort out the good from the bad, not run witch trials based on some perceived moral failing that only a tiny vocal minority of the population believes in. Patreon is losing business by the thousands right now because people see the obvious problems that start popping up when you start throwing around the idea that there is some inherent morality code that people have to follow and everyone who doesn't agree should be ostracized. You should try reading a history book or two, you might spot an issue or two that arose the last time a powerful entity started dictating morality through rule of law. Patreon is free to take this route but their customers are under no obligation to support their choice. This current crisis is simply a natural outcome of the free market as the consumers make their opinions known. Finally, if you think the people who believe that word-salad of insults you tossed out, not a single one of which is based in reality by the way, constitute the majority of the population such that pandering to them is a smart financial move you might want to go see how well the other businesses that have taken this approach are currently doing right now. I suggest you bring a bucket, it'll make sifting through the ashes a little easier.

Ryusuta

This is a complex situation, for sure. I'll continue to support you as much as I can until all of this blows over.

Anonymous
>>18120799

Phillip Palmer: "There is no such thing as hate speech." I really don't have to rebut anything else you said. That statement alone is enough to tell anyone with an ounce of humanity what your positions are. I'm out of this one. This isn't the forum to have this conversation, and you are not the person to have it with, mostly because real conversations require both parties to be objective, and you clearly are not.

Anonymous

Hey, Log ("Lodge"? "Loj"?). Although I'm honestly disgusted at the way Patreon has handled this, rest assured you still have my support. Regarding spreading the word about support alternatives, have you posted your announcement on the mailing list? I'm sure a lot of your patrons (current or former) are aubscribed.

Anonymous

I will also move away from patreon but I am waiting for a good alternative. I wanted to write something in response to John but Phillip did a much better job. And looking at John's response says it all. I will try my best not to make you a casualty of this Mr. Logicked

Logicked
>>18141077

Thanks. I'd really recommend looking into either the recurring Paypal or Paywhirl options on my website - they're both decent options (although not per video of course).

Shining_Darkness

Meh, unless other creators that I support ALL move to the same alternative I’ll stick around unless they try another fee change (it makes it so much easier on me to track my money if everything flows through the same pipe)