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Bonus 23 - Lovecraftian Anime (Patreon)

Published:
2020-03-16 19:07:18
Imported:
2021-07

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Content

A couple of Anime outsiders peer behind the curtain of the Lovecraftian subgenre and insights abound!

Here's that clip from Read or Die.

Special thanks to patron Patrick Ferguson!

Comments

Kit Ainslie

You lads are saints, true boon companions if ever I did see. Couldn’t have asked for a better gift this stressful Monday noon.

Rick Hound

Yeah, the end of Hellboy's main comic plot feels like complete apocalypse and pretty melancholy in a way

Anonymous

I've watched the Evangelion series maybe five or six times in its entirety over the last 20-25 years, and I have never heard of this ancient civilization/spaceship backstory that Chris is detailing here... is this something that was established in some other media? Was this from the Rebuilds, which I watched but don't remember very well? In the dubs, maybe? The manga? Or am I losing my mind at such a tender age?

Rick Hound

The Japanese novelist Nisio Isin basically plays with the ideas of those common tropes that baffles you two, playing as its just another kind of escapism

Rick Hound

And the reason the Magus acts like that is because he doesn't completely understand human concepts like marriage and its meaning, he's in reality part fae and only been with meager interactions with humanity

Rick Hound

And I recommend the three prequel movies that came out before the show

Anonymous

So glad to hear Uzumaki get a mention. Ito's the best, and it's probably his best. With Uzumaki, he really showed his mastery of the twist ending!

Anonymous

Finally decided to upgrade to Cultist ,now to my hoard of fresh to me C&C !

Anonymous

This may be a bit of a stretch, but I've always found an element of weird/cosmic horror in the series Berserk. The God Hand and their Apostles are monstrous on a scale beyond the human, and there's a common thread of humanity attempting to contextualize these cosmic nightmares into their mortal moral or religious worldview, which usually only amplifies the horror when things come to their inevitable catastrophic ends. Sanity checks are failed!

Anonymous

Anime actually used to often include a lot more grim themes, and had more adult characters and less focus on school stuff. It was arguably a better time for fans of darker themes and horror stuff. More recent anime seems to have more often been consumed with school settings and soft escapism. I think it's important to keep in mind though that, while anime may include themes that feel very adult to westerners, the shows are nonetheless targeted at a mostly very young audience. Yes, there are plenty of adult fans. But the more average Japanese person would consider anyone too much into anime past a certain age to be perhaps a bit odd, just as My Little Pony or something like that has adult fans here, and even conventions, but it's still very much thought of as kids stuff by most people. Regarding the sexual aspects, I think that this pod cast's coverage of The Human Chair actually touched on that aspect of Japanese culture where there is a certain frankness about sensuality and even fetishes that you don't see everywhere. If a cartoon aimed mostly at young boys will sell better with some short skirts, perverse jokes and kinks included, they don't hesitate to put it into the show. The high concept aspect still persists in moderm anime, though even the most weird concepts are often forced to fit into common tropes and school settings these days. For all it's outlandishness, anime can be oddly old fashioned in its storytelling by Japanese standards though. In real life, women wait longer to get married in Japan now and may continue working afterwards. But in anime, anyone older than the ripe old age of 27 is getting past marriageable age, and may be depicted quitting their job if they do get married, as if nothing has changed there in 40 years. And the childhood friends in a school setting leading to romance thing probably dates back to when more Japanese lived in smaller and more isolated communities, so ending up marrying someone you knew from childhood was romanticized. Anime feels like a time capsule at times in this respect, maintaining cultural assumptions and traditions in storytelling that are increasingly outdated even in Japan. This may help explain the, to westerners, odd popping up of themes about pregnancy in school stories that Chris touched on, and such. In anime, it is a girl's presumed fondest wish to be a good nadeshiko house wife, who makes food and babies for her man. Again, as if they were living in an earlier age. And if nearly all your stories are school stories, the traditional themes and associations all get mixed together with teen characters, and so kids are seen talking about marriage, procreation, family roles, etc.

Anonymous

I just started reading The Ancient Magus' Bride manga a few months ago and love it. It's a sweet(ish) Beauty-and-the-Beast story full of British folklore...and also every single bit of the weird stuff you guys said. I'm definitely going to check out Mushishi now too.

Anonymous

Miscellany: 1. I never could get into anime, despite being a fan of "Battle of the Planets" as a young tyke in the 70s. Maybe the problem was that my first exposure to more serious anime was a bootleg copy of "Akira" in the 80s in Japanese without subtitles. My friend was really into it, but I had no idea what the hell was going on. [Note to self: Maybe rewatch that some time with subtitles?] 2. Teenager stories as entertainment for middle-aged men: Mostly agreed, except "The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina" is a good time. Grown-up characters help, I expect, or maybe it's just my harmless crush on Michelle Gomez. 3. Technology and ambivalence: There's a lot that rings true in Chad's analysis, but he overlooks Star Trek! And Chris let him get away with it. In Trek, technology causes problems all the time, but when the solution isn't our heroes' ability to work through a moral quandary, it's usually a better application of technology, like synchronizing the transporter's annular confinement beam to the warp core frequency, or possibly M-rays.

Rick Hound
>>33749903

Yeah I’ve always thought of it but also with a bit of themes of Machenisms where sin is a concept of going off the cosmic norm ie in the latter chapters, but the most lovecraftian concept of the series in my own opinion is the world’s afterlife.

Anonymous

WAIT CHAD WAS IN ROD MY BRAIN IS MELTING I WAS LIKE FOURTEEN WHEN I WATCHED THE MOVIE ON ADULT SWIM

Anonymous
>>33752218

I first watched Akira in France, with French subtitles I didn't understand. Later, I saw it with English subtitles. Still didn't completely understand it...

Rick Hound

Another anime/manga I’d recommend that isn’t completely Lovecraftian (trying not to spoil) is the Dorohedoro series (loosely translated as Mud to Slime), it’s atmosphere is very weird horror based with a basis of metal punk for a extra bit of flavor. It also has a really dark sense of humor, but for those that have seen it or heard of it—it’s weirder than even most Japanese media.

Anonymous
>>33748367

This confused me, as well. I've seen the series, the movies, and all but the last of the rebuild movies, and never once did I hear them talk about alien seedships.

Anonymous
>>33749498

I'd very much like to see Junji Ito cover Lovecraft like he did for Frankenstein.

Anonymous
>>33752242

Oh, while I don't have any Lovecraftian recommendations off the top of my head, so far as anime/manga in general go I'll always recommend the Fullmetal Alchemist manga. (Or FMA: Brotherhood if you want an anime. Brotherhood is a proper adaptation of the whole series, where the original anime started when the books were just a few volumes in and made up most of its plot.) Also, Naoki Urasawa's Monster is absolutely superb. Just fantastic.

Rick Hound

Also Made in Abyss gets a big Lovecraftian mystery atmosphere overall with the concept of the “Abyss” changing you mentality and/or physical without a exact explanation and the long destroyed civilization and it’s artifacts giving unnatural abilities when used

Steve

Here's one to watch with your kids, it's on Netflix (I think): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Lovecraft_and_the_Frozen_Kingdom. There are two sequels too.

Anonymous

The whole reason for the tentacles is that Japanese censors will not allow a penis to be shown. Fully naked women are just fine of course. So animators had to come up with an alternative, and tentacles fit that bill nicely. Also, Japan has a hyper-sexualized obsession with young girls that goes way beyond anything in the West. It is tied into Kawaii, or Cuteness, but I think it goes a lot farther than that. Google "Little Idols" and you will see what I mean.

Anonymous

And I forgot to mention, yesterday was the Ides of March. So RIP Grandpa Lovecraft. In his house in R'lyeh, dead Lovecraft waits dreaming.

Jason Thompson

Ah, my dudes, this was delightful!! I think your flabbergastment at all the giant robots in these anime can be compared to some non-American comic reader’s flabbergastment at reading American comics and going “The plot is interesting, yeah... but why is there always some person in a skin-tight outfit and a crazy secret identity? Why??!!” If you are ever decide to pull the trigger on that “Lovecraftian manga” episode, hit me up! 😉

Jason Thompson
>>33758064

There’s the famous “Dream of the Fisherman’s Wife” octopus sex picture which Chris & Chas mentioned..... but IIRC the creator of “Legend of the Overfiend”, the first tentacle porn manga in the 1980s, really has said he was influenced by Lovecraft! So Lovecraft really is to blame!!

Jeff C. Carter

When I was first exposed to Anime (or 'Japanime', as it was called once upon a time) I was utterly perplexed by the bizarre stories. I eventually got acclimated to letting the world and high concepts wash over me, confident that the narrative would eventually cohere. I've been a sucker for that approach ever since.

Jeff C. Carter

I am reading a book about Japanese storytelling, and it details how manga created for the weekly magazines are constantly readjusted to what the audience is responding to. Any creator that doesn't deliver can quickly get dropped, which has apparently led to a story structure that is far more similar to the American Pulps of the 1950s than modern Western 3 Act/Hero's Journey style plotting. Also, if you don't have the occasional pervy high school girl antics, your story won't succeed with the mainstream audience.

Anonymous

Beyond the Ghost in the Shell manga and all the movies (that is anime, right? not the Scarlett taking all the roles Johansen thing), I have practically zero experience. I’ll check out Evangelion since a ton of it has just shown up on Netflix here in Germany, but most anime I’ve come across (manga and television) really strike that I shouldn’t be looking at this chord that you bring up Chad.. Even that clip of Read or Die was making me uncomfortable. I think I would be far more concerned about people finding my browser history full of links to flicks about too short skirt big eyed babes and their brooding bros than all the Pornhub searches. BTW, I don’t if it’s true for all Japanese porn, but if you want to see or rather not see something, check out the print media versions of Japanese gay porn. To put it succinctly, a lot of black rectangles. It’s so weird. They don’t do that in the hentai, so there’s that. Finally, yes Avatar. I know I’m not the first to call it Game of Thrones for kids, but what a show. I loved Speed Racer as a little kid, but I so wished I could have grown up with Aang, Katara and Sokka. Yeah the 70’s had a lot of fun stuff, but what a frigging great show Konietzko and DiMartino made. And, of course, a brilliant ending (take that Westeros!) Oh, one more thing. Any reaction to season 2 of Altered Carbon? I thought it was pretty good and some effective extension and fleshing out (ha, didn’t even notice that one till I wrote it) of the world-building in S1. I only made it halfway through the second book, so the series has now gone past that. I hope Netflix keeps this one going. I haven’t been able to finish S2 of Sabrina or past ep 4 of Locke & Key. More of that, do I really care what teens (or thirty year olds pretending to be teens) get up to vibe. Oh well, back to Castlevania (what is that exactly?)

Anonymous

I can probably set you up with a translator here in Japan if you would like that. A couple of contact people immediately spring to mind. I am a terrible translator, but I know good work when I see it. Evangelion's Christian imagery notwithstanding, it's useful to remember that Japan doesn't really have the same concepts of good/evil duality or sin as part of its cultural legacy. The primary religious drivers are Shinto and Buddhism. Shinto deities are more like the ancient Greek or Roman gods - essentially human in their behavior and as apt to ruin your life as reveal great wonders. In Shinto cleanliness is important - purity - but that doesn't have the same connection to sinful acts seen in a lot of Western culture. Finally (I know this is long), Buddhism has a lot of different versions here, but the key thing to understand is that there are very few bright lines when it comes to behavior. Moral relativism and situational ethics are important. One last one. Japan has worked out how to endure the unendurable. The kamikaze was originally the divine wind that sprang up (it really did) and sank invading fleets. Until that stopped working. Bushido was the quasi-religious military philosophy associated with the samurai that created order in the world for hundreds of years. Until that stopped working. Japan was forced to open to the world and looked around at all the Asian countries that had been colonized and set out to become a colonizer so that it wouldn't share the same fate as neighbors. And that worked for a while. Until it didn't. Nationalism failed. Pride failed. The divine Emperor had to renounce his divinity. And the country set to work outworking everyone so it could rise again - even in the midst of occupation. Oh, heck, one more. Anpanman is one of the longest-running manga and television anime out there. Aimed squarely at little kids. Anpanman is a superhero with anpan (sweet bean-paste filled bread) for a head. He saves children and literally fights bacteria and germs. If children are hungry he will give them his head to eat - a kindly uncle baker can bake him a new head. And all this comes out of a soldier in WWII who sat out there afraid and starving and dreaming of anpan. Who took that horror and twisted it into joy and hope. Enough. (mushi is the word for insects)

Anonymous

Is this a Topics Show? I don't think this is a Comments Show.

Rick Hound

I also recommend Nihei's works (like Blame) since I know Lackey enjoys the Transhumanism concept

Anonymous

It was interesting hearing perspectives from people unfamiliar and “outside” anime fandom. I’d recommend watching more deeply into some series and going beyond first impressions or online descriptions. There are, I know many obstacles to getting comfortable with anime. A big one is that it is very common that the main plot of a series doesn’t “kick in” until 4 - 6 episodes in. Even with Evangelion, you don’t really know what you are in for until about episode 6. Imagine judging all of “Avatar: The Last Airbender” from the first couple episodes.

Anonymous
>>33757775

I wanted to like those more than I did. Great voice talent, though.

Scott Morrison

I'm a relative noob with respect to anime, but one I can recommend wholeheartedly to anyone is "One Punch Man". Some of the monsters the main character fights are kind of Lovecraftian, but the tone is definitely not (think fun and goofy).

Anonymous

First off, great episode I was not expecting. Well all episode of HPPod are really good, you continue to be one of the most consistent podcasts I listen too. But I did not expect Lovecraft, anime., and giant robots to come crashing together in my ears this week. (Apparently I need to rewatch ROD sometime.) Second, I second the Made in Abyss recommendation. Children trying to face the world with a sunny attitude in a fantasy steampunky setting, despite the incursion of gut wrenching cosmic horror at the bottom of a very very big hole in the world. It somehow balances bleakness and being uplifting at the same time. Third, I've read but I forget where that the prevalence of high school settings in anime is because of nostalgia and relatability. It's a shared experience everyone in Japan is familiar what with the standardized uniforms, college prep, club activities, old happy memories that maybe weren't that happy but it seems better than your job now, the madness of teenage hormones, etc. So it has become the default backdrop for most anime to hang all it's simple stories or high concepts on. I do wish there was more anime set in college. Off the top of my head I can only think of Genshiken and Moyashimon, neither of which are Lovecrafian, unless yeast bacteria are tiny shoggoths. Finally, Nyarlko... *sigh* It's good you mentioned it. To get it out of the way. But man I was excited when I heard there was going to be a show with loads of Lovecraftian trappings with names and concepts borrowed from the mythos. And there are alot of them, but they are pretty much just that, borrowed names. It's a harem anime. A bog standard harem anime with familiar (to us) names glue on. I forget if I even finish the first season. Nyarlko as a character is okay, a weird clingy dream girl with nerdy hobbies, but she is inoffensive. Especially when compared to Cthuga and Hastor. Cthuga just wants to be with Nyarlko, and her being a lesbian is a punchline every time. Hastor is a little boy. A little boy lusting after the male main character. That is his punchline. His only punchline. He never takes no for an answer. Not funny. Do not recommend.

Anonymous

Huh, I have a Read or Die DVD that I picked up for a buck at a library sale but have never watched. Guess I need to find it to hear more of Chad’s sweet dulcet tones.

Anonymous
>>33796356

The most overtly Lovecraftian anime I’ve come across is Mysteries of the Necronomicon. As well as the title, this includes Herbert West as a villain and uses elements from Dreams in the Witch House, The Whisperer in Darkness, and probably others I’ve forgotten about. Unfortunately it’s from the same people who made Urotsukidōji: Legend of the Overfiend and has a similar level of sexual assault and tentacle rape, and just isn’t very good in general. I found out about it through a book called The Necronomicon Files by Daniel Harms and John Wisdom Gonce II, which is a pretty great history of the history of the Necronomicon. It covers both the fictional history as laid out by Lovecraft and his followers, and also real-world hoaxes where various people have tried to pass off their own creations as the “real” thing. Then at the end it has a review section of media which the Necronomicon appears in, from Cast a Deadly Spell to the entertaining Canadian TV movie Out of Mind where Christopher Heyerdahl plays HPL.

Anonymous

I was surprised no one suggested that this was the perfect opportunity to get Derleth back; just slap his name on that anime where Nyarlathotep is a silver haired teenage girl who wants to get pregnant, and see how he likes it.

Avlin Starfall

So funny listening to them talking about anime since both are relatively unfamiliar with the genre. Hearing Chris talk about how all anime is weird and bizarre is hilarious coming from an anime fan. Though I do have to admit a lot of anime is bizarre. Also, the reason anime and manga is do focused on teens and such is because it really is a genre for teens. So those characters and subjects such as sex and things is what is on the minds of teens. However, Japan does also have a very, very bad case of sexualizing children or young girls, such as with loli, young looking girls or girls that look like children but are said to be hundreds or thousands of years old making them "of legal age" which has become more and more common as time has continued.

Anonymous

This was a pretty great and unexpected episode. I agree on Mushishi - it is one of my favorites. I used to watch more anime but the recent stuff you mentioned was new to me. Lovecraft references show up in odd places in other shows - I think there's an episode of Digimon that references Dagon and deep ones. Junji Ito is amazing and Uzumaki is one of the best cosmic stories I've read. There is a film (that's okay) but it can't capture the spiraling revelations that make the comic so good. The movie Pulse/Kairo has a bit of the "watch the apocalypse" style of End of Evangelion, too. End of Evangelion in particular was pretty mind-blowing as a teenager ("you can do that with a story??") but the level of fan service with the short skirts and teenage sexual imagery makes it hard for me to revisit. If you step over to video games, the game "Bloodborne" has an excellent presentation of Lovecraftian ideas. Much more than just putting some tentacles in, they really dove into it - with an emphasis on dreams, the moon, and the weird. The DLC adds in an area that is essentially straight up Innsmouth. The game is also a love song to horror in general, from the Gothic to Universal films to finally Lovecraft. Finally, Chris and Chad have mentioned playing Call of Cthulhu before. Apparently Call of Cthulhu is *huge* in Japan - bigger than Dungeons and Dragons. There are even illustrated summaries of people's games, called replays, that you can buy in game stores. I think the closing credits of Nyaruko-san have a CoC character sheet - but I can't say for sure as I also found it intolerable.

Jason Thompson
>>33835593

Nyaruko feels more influenced by CoC than by Lovecraft directly, it has SAN points references and all.

Anonymous

Fun episode. I nearly did a double-take when Chris mentioned the name Ghost Hound. The reason being I work as a backline tech in Pittsburgh PA, (I set up drum kits, guitar amps, keyboards and other various instruments for bands). Last year I worked with a local band that goes by the name 'Ghost Hounds'. The interesting thing about this band is the band leader, Thomas Tull, is part owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers and is a former movie producer, I believe Legendary Productions was his company, whose filmography is very impressive. I always wondered where Thomas got the name Ghost Hounds from, though he is a self-proclaimed nerd, I don't know if he is anime fan. Anyway thought I would share.

Anonymous

James May "Your man in Japan " is a great watch if you have Amazon Prime. Japanese Model of culture is very strong, one episode deals with the Nuclear bombings.Probably the best culture in the World to deal with the present situation.

Anonymous

Sorry I'm late to this - but as far as short-form "anime"-style pieces go, DYE's video for "Fantasy" (well, the last few seconds) is pretty great: https://vimeo.com/30798517 Also, while I'm neither an anime nor Manga fan, I did read "The Enigma of Amigara Fault", which is deeply creepy and weird: http://brasscockroach.com/h4ll0w33n2007/manga/Amigara-Full/Amigara.html

Anonymous

This is not an anime comment, but rather about Chad's comment about Armageddon where humanity is transformed. Arthur C Clarke's 1953 classic novel Childhood's End covers the transition of humanity into a new state, and so does Greg Bear's 1984 novel Blood Music.

Anonymous

Chad: I’m going to go down the rabbit hole on a couple of these... Me: (thinks) BEASTARS isn’t Lovecraftian. (groans, followed by the sound of pitchforks and torches being readied)

Anonymous

I really enjoyed this episode. As someone who dabbles in anime (more mainstream stuff like My Hero Academia), it was nice to see reactions of those who it’s still pretty foreign to. I also greatly appreciated Chad's insight into the representations of technology in anime. When can we hear about the influence of the Russo-Japanese War?? I’ve been thinking about the whole high school trope in anime, and I think we have something similar in the west. The office setting comes up a lot in media (The Office, Fight Club, The Apartment, The Matrix, even, to some extent) and characters within that setting often look to break from the mundanity of the situation. I wonder if it’s because we view the office as the necessary evil to climbing the ladder to financial independence? A friend described the high school setting as a nostalgic reprieve to the over-worked, over-stressed business person of Japan, perhaps these settings motivate from similar causes.

Anonymous

This episode went exactly where I wanted it to. 😎

Anonymous

Is it me or does it seem like Chad listens to Mike Duncan's Revolutions Podcast? The Russo-Japanese War quip, and a description of Paris a year or two ago make me think he does. Both came about the time Mike was discussing them on his podcast. Probably just me.

Anonymous

A lot of the teen focused anime thing is because a lot of anime in Japan is made for teens. Since it's more of a niche hobby in the usa localizations are targetted at anime fans in general -- but in japan theres a lot of different demographics that different shows target.

Anonymous

I'm surprised that the series "Bungo Stray Dogs", a series about people with special powers who are modeled and named after various authors in Japanese and Western literature, wasn't mentioned. In the second season there's a character who is named H. P. Lovecraft and his character design looks exactly like the real life Lovecraft, except with extremely long hair and he turns into Cthulhu.

Anonymous

The anime 'Another' always had a very Lovecraftian feel to me. Check it out

Anonymous

I've recently gotten deep into "Berserk" and recently I listened to y'all's Conan the barbarian episodes. It dawned on me that "Berserk" is totally inspired by Robert E. Howard's! Boom! It's also got cosmic horrors of course.