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Episode 410 - Dagoniad (Patreon)

Published:
2018-07-07 16:46:15
Edited:
2019-01-04 03:25:17
Imported:
2021-07

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Content

Actor/comedian Patton Oswalt is back again to discuss Michael Shea's DAGONIAD! OH YEAH!

Special thanks to reader Heather Klinke!

Featuring an excerpt by reader Andrew Leman from our third episode: Dagon!

Check out Silver Screen Fiend: Learning About Life from an Addiction to Film!

Next up: An Account Of Some Strange Disturbances in Aungier Street by Sheridan Le Fanu!

Comments

Jeremy Impson

The description of the creature (the Taker?), with it's reptilian body and out-of-place toothy mouths, reminded me of the description of the corpse of Wilbur Whately in Dunwhich Horror, with his squamous, piebald hide and the eyeballs at his hips. As Wilbur was the Son-Grandson-Nephew of Yog Sothoth, I wonder if Shea's creature has a similar relationship to Dagon.

Anonymous

Yes! More Patton! He's the perfect compliment to you guys, I love it!

Anonymous

Please please some more musical heavy metal lovecraft/shea stylings of Patton and Chad. Chris I eagerly await your paper. Me, I've gone back and forth on that idea of HP's sexuality my whole life. Having the great misfortune of being an English lit grad student in the early 80's when pop culture studies and post-modernism was all the rage, I watched (normally in a not good kind of horror) as one of my favorite authors from my childhood was dragged through deconstruction, ecofeminism, marxism and all strains of freudianism with the inevitable outcome of him and his works being dismissed on one grounds or another. At this point in my life I think all the different forces operating on him and within him should be seen equally. He may have been a repressed homosexual, but his problems with race, his family finanical problems, the insanity of both his father and mother (with the former probably from syphyllis) as well as a clearly asethete nature made him into the writer he was. Everything I just listed could "explain" why he so adored 18th century England imagining it as the perfect place he belonged. But he was apparently one of the most prolific letter writers in American hisotry. Probably those records will never be broken again unless we start counting tweets (please god no). So he was not the hermit everyone imagines. Yes, he preferred the company of men and his stories are a sausage feast through and through, most often in pairs, one more dominant. Yet, I still hesitate to say that it means this and that produced this incredible idea of cosmic horror. I think it's all that he experienced and didn't whether because he couldn't or he wouldn't. We all like to think that if he had lived longer he really would've regretted writing that horrible poem with the n-word (and revising Rats in the Wall to give that wonderful cat a better and more fitting title). But it is what it is. I hate using loan words just to be prentiuous but I really think the German word Unruhe best describes his mind. It means more than just disquietude. I think HP suffered and revelled in these numerous conflicts. His sexuality, what it was or wasn't, was just one part of it. But I'd still love it if you did do a paper for some journal (The Academy of Post-Post-Post Whateverism?) What would he have thought of Providence's Pride parade? That's a story I wish Shea had written.

Anonymous

I believe the New Orleans story was actually about CM Eddy and he didn’t partake of the ladies.

Anonymous

Patton is the most insightful reader I've ever heard. Can you make him a permanent co-host? He's not doing anything else, right?

Anonymous

Egads. This "Lovecraft was in the closet" nonsense again. I mean no hostility to Chris, here, but I find this and similar theories really upsetting. Certain historical figures--like Lovecraft and Nikola Tesla--exhibit clear traits of asexuality when you go over their biographical history. I find such theories on Lovecraft's orientation irksome because it ignores the tendencies in his personality that are right in the open--it feels like even more progressive people just ignore the fact that asexuality is real, and that asexual people are just as valid as anyone else. (Hell, back when deconstructing an author's work based on their assumed psychological tics was popular, people seemed to think charging someone with asexuality was an INSULT.) His relationship with his wife, aside from showing off some legitimate shortcomings in Lovecraft's character, is telling. He did seem to legitimately love her--though sex was not an area where he was comfortable. Ask any asexual and they can tell you that they can experience romantic love--they just don't care for the messy physical part of it. Sex is certainly fun (you'll get no argument from me on that score) but I think too many people view it as a be-all end-all that everyone OBVIOUSLY has an interest in. It's not. Lovecraft not taking an interest in female company does not, for Azathoth's sake, automatically mean he was subconsciously seeking a dalliance with his male companions! But, at the end of the day, we're talking about someone who's long-dead, so I suppose these things don't matter much. I just think these hypotheses get a lot more traction than they deserve.

Anonymous

Someone finally talked about Prince of Darkness more and it was Patton Oswalt. Thank you, HP Lovecraft Literary Make a Wish Foundation!

Anonymous

If you're interested in Lovecraft monsters = Vagina monsters I recommend the book Freaksome Tales by V.V Swigferd Gloume

Anonymous

Interesting theory on Lovecraft's sexuality. I know it's been long debated and even he wrote saying it didn't appeal to him but I do have to wonder. Not to get too political here but you do see a lot of the most vocal anti-homosexuals seem to be the ones that pop up in a scandal with same sex partners shamed in the media. I wish people weren't so cruel to the side of they repressed. AHEM. Anyhoo great episode as usual. Love hearing Patton on again. Curious what other authors or podcasts you folks listen to? I've been on a big Laird Barron kick recently and I guess he and Shea were fairly good friends. Really feel awful I never heard of Shea until last month. But I have heard of a lot of his stories tangentially. I think there was a reference to his story Fat Face in one of the older Call of Cthulu source books.

Anonymous

All right, I'm convinced. I'll pick up some Shea and consume it like the toothy-teated Taker I yearn to be. Vision boarded. Secret focused. Based not in San Fran but in the loathsome murk of Tokyo Bay. R'lyeh will rise. We will witness the opening of Kitty-chan's fearful maw... Yes. Well. Tip of the hat. Many thanks. Cheers.

Anonymous
>>13673526

I think there are plenty of examples in Lovecraft works of people being seduced by the temptations of the Old Ones. We really don't hear about many Innsmouth folk trying to get away, and of course the narrator ultimately joins them. Sure some off themselves because they find out great gramps got down with a gorilla, but more often than not they are like Delapore or the narrator in Dagon, not really outcasts in the Shea sense, just maybe unlucky (by chance or genetics), but they are ensnared nonetheless and go not so unwillingly. Maybe in the framework of cosmic horror, humanity is so insignificant that when faced with it, the inevitable reaction is not fainting or insanity but submission. Unconsciousness and madness are only respites and while I love Shea (thanks Patton, Chad and Chris for really highlighting him), hope is not a real weapon against the onslaught. I can't remember which story it was I either read (in Gaimans' anthology) or heard (most likely on Pseudopod), but it was about the world after Cthulhu's victory and the narrator after fighting futilely gives in, becoming a winged gaunt and joining in the whole being taught new ways to shout, revel etc. I think this is always the logical conclusion of strawing from placid islands of ignorance, not a gibbering fool (that's for the lucky one), but a transformed part of the monstrosity which I guess is a kind of elevation. It's not only the fringes of society that are so blessed. It doesn't care at all about us and consumes randomly which I think adds to the horror.

witchhousemedia
>>13661780

Chris, here. Lovecraft's sexuality, ultimately, doesn't matter. His works stand on their own merits and knowing who he was sexually attracted to, doesn't factor in to his work. My impression of his sexuality is only that, just my impression. From his early stories to his personal relationships, it just feels like a conclusion that comes easy. There is no real evidence to support this belief, so anything I would write would be purely conjecture. But for me, it's just part of my quest to understand that guy. How would someone who lived in a time where homosexuality was criminal, process those feelings? How would it manifest? I think about Lovecraft a lot and this theory is all about ME trying to get who he really was.

witchhousemedia
>>13664394

Chris here. It's definitely a possibility that Lovecraft was asexual. The 'evidence' I've found is only my impression. From the relationships he writes about in "Statement of Randolph Carter" and "The Hound" as well as what I've read about his relationship with Barlow (who was gay), it just feels like that it could be a possibility. Any sexual preference, or lack there of, doesn't change the validity of his work and his contribution to weird fiction and his support and nurturing of other writers. Ultimately, we'll never know.

Anonymous

I’m with Chris on the sexuality thing, you’ll not find firm evidence but the overall picture is that of a repressed gay man. It’s interesting that M R James, one of Lovecraft’s favourite ghost story writers, has had similar theories, with James I think it is more obvious as he was an incredibly sociable man who chose to spend time with other men his whole life. I’m also interested by how some fans of both writers try to ban any conversation on the matter or try and excuse it as if being gay is wrong. I would argue that the whole of a writer’s being is important to understand their stories fully on an intellectual level. Alternatively I love reading Lovecraft and James on a surface level, scary monsters are fun too.

Anonymous

PS Patton and Shea are great too!

Anonymous
>>13677507

To be fair, Frank, many places have difficulty maintaining civil discussions. While nobody seems to be supressing the idea of Lovecraft's potential homosexuality here, I'm sure there are many out there who react to the idea less rationally. Still, I have noticed a bit of a trend in trying to "out" historical figures like you mention; while some folks are papering over the unconventional sexuality of people like Alexander the Great, others are trying to insist Tesla was gay until they're blue in the face. I think the sheer vagueness that enters history--sometimes because information doesn't survive, other times because only people that dedicate years to study know all the pertinent details--makes a lot of people want a quick answer by inferring what they personally see, then sticking to that. I don't mean that as an insult or dismissal; that sort of behaviour is intrinsic to human behaviour, and is a facet of our overall acuity with pattern-finding. (Sort of like Chad believing in his personal fictions to get by in a blistering Universe that doesn't care for him.) It just doesn't always line up perfectly with objective reality.

witchhousemedia

Chris Here. Just totally blown away by the thoughtful, insightful and civil conversation on this thread. It seems that team HPLLP is composed of the best people in the world. I'm just sayin'!

Anonymous
>>13697920

It truly makes you wonder doesn't it to whatever happened to the idea of the internet as a global village where everyone could share every opinion. Well not really, no one can really be surprised at it degenerating into the slugfest of hurling vitriol it's become, which is why when you can find a place of actual discussion even of conflicting opinions it is so breathtakingly wonderful. All credit goes to you and Chad for making this possible. (And I suppose a bit to Patreon ;))

Anonymous

Another great episode with some most intriguing thought provoking comments on this thread. Love it! I'm heading to Providence next week so I'll knocking back some more older shows. Got 181 left to go and I'll be caught up!

Anonymous

I would certainly raise my monthly donation if it meant we got a full rendition of " snake-knot around the taker's legs"

witchhousemedia
>>13700662

Make sure you go to the Atheneum. It's amazing! Sit down and read something while you're there!

Anonymous
>>13702304

so seconded!!!! I'd add that Dark Adventure Radio Theater should find a way to work it into something. I know it doesn't really fit the style of works to date, but a suggestion you guys might pass on to Andrew?

Anonymous

More Shea! I read the entire Demiurge collection after the Tsothoggua episode (Dagoniad was included) and have now started "Nifft The Lean". So many years lost having never heard of this author...the guy is incredible!

Anonymous

Someone needs to run a game of CoC for Patton.

Jason Thompson

I've always had a problem with "all Lovecraft's fiction was real!" type plots (or the same for other authors/universes). Doesn't this mean Lovecraft basically had no originality? >_> Instead of coming up with stuff out of his imagination, all he did was just write a bunch of super-easy nonfiction stories describing the ghoul he saw last night, and then he passes it off as fiction? What a ripoff!!

Jason Thompson

I used to really think Lovecraft was gay-- and who knows anything's possible-- but as I get older I feel he was more likely just prudish and asexual-ish. There is one of his letters where he says that he used to take one of his poorer high school friends home with him and basically fawn over the guy and wanted to make them best buds, until quote-unquote "he displayed certain tendencies I did not like", which I suspect (on zero evidence) equals GAYNESS, although who knows maybe the poor guy just didn't know who Dr. Samuel Johnson was or said something anti-racist and Lovecraft got annoyed. -_-;; I'm convinced Lovecraft had a crush on Helen Sully -- howabout that story where he freaked her out telling creepy stories late at night in the graveyard? >_O Sounds highly straight-man-ish to me! Plus, the Helen Sully/Lovecraft 15-year age difference is the same as between Edward Derby and Asenath Waite in "Thing on the Doorstep", OBVIOUSLY a reference! (haha)

Anonymous
>>13707172

Or arrange for him to voice a character in Dark Adventure Radio Theatre.

Anonymous

The Shea stories have been great - I live in the SF Bay Area, so it's cool to read these stories. And Patton was also great (again!). He's been a wonderful addition. More please!

Anonymous
>>13710326

There is a great short story in "A Mountain Walked" where HPL is reincarnated into a Mexican poet and short story author, and everything that HPL wrote is just a portense to etc. etc. It is titled "A Gentleman From Mexico" and it is fantastic! I hear your sentiment, and in general I agree, but this one did a good job of handling the subject. ;)

Anonymous

Loving Shea's work, guys. Bought and read all his Mythos stories, which with the exception of the clumsy sequel to the Colour out of Space were excellent. It's interesting that while Mythos, they're *not* particularly Lovecraftian. Shea is far too fond people for that as you guys said, and Shea's Mythos seems to be building through a series of confrontations as his loose group of protagonists learn more and more. The Mythos entities, likewise, aren't the indifferent idiot gods of Lovecraft- Shea's Dagon and Tsathoggua, to take the two you've covered, collect and cherish souls. I think it would be interesting to consider Shea as a precursor to the current neo-Lovecraftian wave (eg Victor LaValle's Ballad of Black Tom, Ruthanna Emrys' Litany of Earth series) which is likewise very much interested in exploring the Mythos from a human- and often a queer or minority-status human- perspective. It's sad that we'll never get a conclusion to Shea's Mythos as it looked like it was building to something.

Anonymous

I'm loving these shows with Patton as a guest, his mixture of levity and insight feels right at home on your show.

Ilker Yucel

If he was afraid of vaginas, he was also afraid of penises... or any phallic image (hello?! tentacles, anyone?). I think his repression was that he was simply asexual - sex in general was either of no great concern, or was even a horror in his mind. After all, his mother instilled him with the notion that he was "so hideous that he hid from everyone and did not like to walk upon the streets where people could gaze on him." That coupled with his father's implied sexual proclivities leading to his illness and eventual madness, I think it's fair to say that sex in general - homosexual, heterosexual, or otherwise - is of some revulsion to him. Being an "adequately excellent lover" as his wife once said, I've always taken that to mean (similar to what you said once in an episode of the show) that he went through the motions and "did all the things that an excellent lover would do, but he does it adequately." He may have been homosexual in that he preferred the intellectual and emotional connection he felt with men, but I think sex in general horrified him regardless of orientation. Anyway, food for thought... I just think he was asexual. *Shrug* GREAT show as always, guys! =)

Ilker Yucel

As well, I found it interesting that Mr. Oswalt brought up Prince of Darkness - the second in Carpenter's "Apocalypse Trilogy," bookended by The Thing and In the Mouth of Madness. The whole trilogy is a very Lovecraftian series that deals with the apocalypse in different ways. The Thing - "Trust's a tough thing to come by these days. Tell you what - why don't you just trust in the Lord?" Prince of Darkness - "Faith is a hard thing to come by these days." In the Mouth of Madness - "Reality is not what it used to be." I'd written a paper about the trilogy and its themes and connections to Lovecraft, how it all connects... if I can find it, I'll happily send it to you for your scrutiny (if you're interested). The breakdown of trust in your fellow man, when the paranoia and the xenophobia sets in so that all you have to turn to is faith... and then that fails, because to believe in an ultimate good means there must be an ultimate evil, and that evil might be stronger and could (and will) win... and when that happens, you've nothing left but reality. And that's a reality impossible to face with your sanity intact. Which is why the ending when Sam Neill sees the 'movie" on the screen and laughs maniacally... the final realization that his life means nothing, that he is just a fiction, and his sanity shatters... the laughter turns to weeping. VERY Lovecraft (I think) to think about the end of the world in those very broad strokes... cosmic in The Thing, spiritual in Prince of Darkness, personal in Mouth of Madness, all leading to the same end: we're fuckin' doomed! Point of interest - the "This is not a dream. We are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9" from Prince of Darkness, and "Sane and insane could easily exchange places if the insane were to become the majority" from Mouth of Madness... both sampled and used extensively by Chicago industrial/rock bands Acumen Nation and DJ? Acucrack. Acumen even has a song whose lyrics are "I've got a message for you and you're not going to like it" and "Pray for death" from Prince of Darkness. Anyway, blah blah blah. Thanks for all that you do, Podcrafters!

Jason Thompson

Hmm, now that you suggest "The Shadow over Innsmouth" is about repressed homosexuality, the "staying at a hotel and a mysterious stranger tries to open the door to your bedroom" setup is actually sorta hot

Anonymous

Great, great story and an awesome episode. She is definitely and inspirational author and very relavant with his themes of diversity that are in the air today. I first heard of the "everything Lovecraft wrote about was real" idea in Anton LaVay's book The Satanic Rituals. Maybe some of it comes from that?

Anonymous
>>13710481

Same here. The part where he scared her sounded a little bit like his version of courting. I think he was someone who could comfortably ignore his sexual urges and channel them into his work. I do think, however, that Asenaith was in part based on his wife. There's a certain resemblance in the eyes and face.

Anonymous
>>13664409

When I visit LA and drive past that church, or think about this movie, I have a vivid minds-eye remembrance of that film clip. Usually it's the woman version which lets you know ain't nothin' you can do.

Anonymous

That poor giant Dagon worshipper. Ever notice he's as freaked out as anyone else by the earthquake? Grabbing the displaced totem and bowing and scraping. That's one thing I love about Lovecraft, he represents the other side of the argument.

Anonymous
>>13820678

exactly. I always thought it wasn't so much his church as his living room and the statue was sitting on his mantle piece so he is this giganitc bro freaking out that all his stuff is gone except for his trophy. that's what he's wailing about. still would make me lose my marbles if i happened upon a 50 foot dude losing it.

Anonymous
>>13673096

I thought Fat Face was superb -- even better than the two Shea stories we've covered so far. I can't wait till we get to it.

Anonymous

You fuckers. I used to pronounce the title of this story correctly (after Alexander Pope's "Dunciad"), but now, when I see the word I hear Dagon-ade (or perhaps Dagon-aid if it's a Dagon-related charity concert).

Anonymous
>>13858727

nah man, it's the de-sanityzer when you just can't scream loudly and long enough. Dagonade - it does a soul good . Official sports drink of the Innsmouth Swim Team. Copyright pending.

Anonymous

I was in Seattle last week and went on a Michael Shea hunt. When I travel, I like to visit used bookstores, and it's always fun to have little side-quests to complete in strange towns. Since I've been enjoying the heck out of Patton Oswalt's guest-hosting, I decided that my Seattle trip would be the Summer of Shea! I visited 5 bookstores in Seattle and wasn't able to find a Michael Shea book at any of them. One bookstore said they'd had some Shea, but were sold out. At every store, I made sure to name-drop the podcast while speculating that maybe they had no Shea because Oswalt's appearance on the HP Lovecraft Literary Podcast had prompted a resurgence of interest in Shea's work. I have no idea if that's true or not, but now a lot of bookstore staff in the greater Seattle area know about HPLP and Michael Shea!

witchhousemedia
>>14066683

Thanks for spreading the word and the Shea awareness! Would really like to see more of his stuff go back into print.

Anonymous

No one ever mentions Moana as a Lovecraftian film. It has an ancient stone talisman, a sea monster, investigations into one's ancestral past... It is brimming with Lovecraftian goodness!

Anonymous
>>14205760

really? I'll have to give that a view again. I thought it was more Lilo and Stitch but I was probably sleeping and dreaming that after the first chorus (not a big animated musical fan) even though I loved L&S (alien Elvis is always a winner for me).

Neil de Carteret

When life gives you dagons, make dagonade.