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Buffy The Vampire Slayer S06E13 - Dead Things FULL REACTION (Patreon)

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2018-10-12 08:11:25
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Anonymous

This whole episode is just so twisted and messed up. Warren is an absolute pig.

Second_Strike

I always remember this episode as the first time somebody explicitly gets called out for using magic to sexually assault somebody. When Faith does it to Riley, Buffy actually sorta reacts like Riley just cheated on her, and with Willow, all the Scoobies question her use of magic, but Tara is the only one who straight tells her how messed up her actions were. Edit: I forgot Xander's spell in season 2, which is also played entirely for laughs, and to his credit, as soon as realizes what is going on, he tries to do the right thing.

Ritchie

When Buffy was hitting Spike, it reminded me A LOT of the same situation where Faith and Buffy switched bodies and Faith was beating "herself" up. I feel like the things Buffy was saying to Spike, she felt mirrored in herself since she came back. And so the depression metaphor continues. God, how I love it.

Ritchie

Also, I'd just like to say that whenever SMG ugly cries, I too ugly cry. She's just such an amazing actress.

Anonymous

Love your reaction. Warren is so sick.

s jaco

The part with Katerina makes this a very disturbing episode, but I just love that Buffy chose Tara to confide in and the scene is so well acted.

Anonymous

Pivotal episode. We see that Johnathon and Andrew come from a more naïve place (as they realise too!) (not condoning!), as the focus descends on Warren. Plus no spells for 32 days!

Amanda Logsdon

I remember, a while back during the season 3 episode 'amends'. wandering how you would react to spike and buffy, she has been sort of acting like angel was in that episode.

Anonymous

It's episodes like this that make me wonder how anyone can be a Spuffy shipper. I mean, Buffy herself isn't even one. Their relationship is so abusive and gross.

seekingoutfriday

I love Buffy in angst (don't judge me) so I LOVE this episode. It gives me many Buffy feelings and she needs a hug from Tara.

Brandon Wiesner
>>16255760

Anything I say contrary to that point would be a spoiler, so all I can say is, we kept watching.

Anonymous
>>16256816

I do enjoy this episode too, it's disturbing but it was well told and made you feel emotions.

Anonymous

For better or for worse, this is the episode where the trio stop being a joke...

Anonymous

Now I can safely say I f#ing hate Warren, my most disgusted Buffyverse character. Even Shan said it, there are people like these in the world, witch makes it more disturbing, the realism of season 6 hits here too. I remember in the 80 where a lot of "Nerd having a revenge" movies, when guys called nerds put cameras in girl dress rooms, confuse girls to have sex with them, everything covered in a humorist condoning lite, but it was extremely abusive and rapey, I think Joss is trying to make a call out on these in these episode (i don´t now just an idea )

Jarrod Wild

Dissention in the ranks of the Nerd Trio. Seems like Andrew went from feeling horrible about it to being pressured by Warren to go along with it to accepting that they got away with murder. Meanwhile Jonathan is definitely not on board and I think pretty afraid of Warren at this point.

Anonymous

Jonathan annoys me. He helped abduct Kathrina with the intention to rape her, but after Warren kills her, Jonathan is all snarky, as if he wasn't complicit in the whole thing. When you abduct someone, you're in it for the ride. You can't redeem yourself by rolling your eyes.

Anonymous

Warren is disgusting for putting a spell that violates the mind and body of someone he claimed to love. The only thing he can say about himself is that he doesn't seem to be in denial over what he did, though he refuses to take any responsibility for it. And the Spuffy this episode, messed up and beautiful as usual. Spike is loving and doing good as best as he knows how which, given the century being Drusilla's partner (someone who seems to crave pain and suffering/ "I'll do what I should have done to start with. Find her. Tie her up, torture her, until she likes me again!") and being a soulless, evil demon, is some twisted loving and "goodness." He seems to think Buffy will be happier if she accepts the darkness, which she would be, but accepting the darkness doesn't mean what he thinks it means. Yet as messed up as Spike is to Buffy, they are both hurting (and loving? on Buffy's case) each other. Buffy has had Spike 'by the short hairs' because he loves her. She can say or do anything to him and he will take it because it means she hasn't left him. That was made absurdly clear by her beating him up and the dehumanizing speech she made at him. I think she was projecting about herself, but that doesn't mean he didn't hear her. I love the realization Buffy has at the end, using someone like a tool and not a person is wrong. Slowly, very slowly, she is finding herself again. Now Spike needs to learn to understand Buffy's pain, respect her boundaries, and not enable her self-destruction. (and solve world peace while he is up and about LOL) As a vampire, he is at a bit of brick wall to do any of this.

Anonymous
>>16262065

Jonathan is the most interesting one to me. He's really conflicted with himself. He sees their evil is snowballing now, but these are really his only friends where he has found an inner circle of acceptance.

Anonymous

Interesting that Warren's attempted rape of Katrina often overshadows Spike's manipulations of a vulnerable Buffy which, in turn, overshadows the ending reveal that Buffy is the only one of them who feels guilty because she is actually using Spike for her own needs. Buffy was who Spike tried to use as a model for how to fit in that world through Season 5 and into Season 6. Now he's on his own again and just doesn't know what's right or wrong. Poor Tara thought she was bringing good news that Buffy didn't come back wrong. I wonder if she can come up with any more excuses for using Spike.

Shashank
>>16260370

I can’t watch those movies anymore…they are so rapey…to think kids grew up thinking that kind of abusive behavior was considered funny/cool…ugggh. There’s a great break down of the “Adorable nerd misogynist trope” on youtube : <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3-hOigoxHs" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3-hOigoxHs</a> It uses big bang theory as its main example[spoilers], but it really lays it out in great detail.

Holi117

i really find this whole episode very sad and uncomfortable :(

Danna

This is going to sound really weird, but since Buffy ended I really miss seeing SMG cry. She's just soooo good at crying that no matter how many times I watch the same scene I always end up crying with her!

J.D.

This episode pretty much distills what's wrong with season 6. It tries to incorporate shades of grey and the banal, and winds up basically being joyless and really difficult to watch. The show, the characters, the tone of the whole thing... none of it is suited for these themes. They're worth exploring, for sure, but not in this world. I think Whedon figured that he'd hit it out of the park with The Body and thought, "what if we did a whole season of that". Not a good result. And somehow, it gets worse.

Anonymous

Amy the rat seems charming compared to Amy the person.

Ariel17

I agree with the others saying this is a disturbing and heavy episode considering the realism of the evil portrayed here with Warren and Co. And yea, the whole self destructive relationship Buffy has with Spike I super interesting. But I also wanna mention how much I love that scene where Buffy and Spike somehow sense each other’s presence through that door. And the Bush song “Out of this World” is awesome.

cil

Part of what makes the nerd trio so terrifying is that they're human. All of the other previous big bads on Buffy have been demon or God . I also think the show does a great job of subverting our expectations in initially portraying them as dorky and harmless ... only to later show how vile and malicious they truly are.

FernWithy

I think my problem with this episode--which on subsequent views I can see as having some high quality moments--is just that the level of melodrama they're reaching for isn't earned. Spuffy is such an odd ship, with a lot of super-troubling moments, but it's one of the few I actively sail on despite the troubling elements. But I feel like there are some writing mistakes in it--things that I feel like I know what the writers were going for, but they overshoot it dramatically by a mile.

seekingoutfriday
>>16274644

I think it's inconsistency with Spike in season 6. You can tell writers had different opinions on him - some wanted him to stay a monster, so you get bits where he's trash to Buffy, and then some wanted him to be a monster that can change, hence early season 6 scenes. Those are completely different Spikes so the Spuffy in season 6 is off and on. Imo, they eventually land on a Spike. And that's all I'll say. Because spoilers.

FernWithy
>>16274644

I agree with that (and I know how it comes out, and can't comment!!! ;p). I don't like that it's so easy to see the problems in the writing process, and I think there are just times when I can almost hear bickering in the writers' room, pushing each other back and forth way too hard.

Michael Roach
>>16272752

Absolutely! That scene at the crypt door with them sensing each other, feeling each others presence, touching hands without actually touching and the accompanying music...I thought and have always thought that it was just an intensely beautiful moment between them.

BaoziBang

I didn't take the Trio serious till this Episode and got completely blindsided by them, especially Warren. I honestly think they are the worst Villains in all of Buffy, the Rest had the excuse of not being Human or not having a Soul but the Trio simply decided to be Buffy's Nemesis out of pure Boredom. That is much worse in my eyes!

Anonymous
>>16274644

I think that the inconsistency in Spike is also his inner dilemma, You can see his inner conflict in WMWF, "Walking through the fire" song, and Smashed when he thinks he can bite people again. I' ve always seeing it as the imprint of William the poet (remember he called himself a good man in FFL) is very strong in Spike the vampire and flourishing in the love he has for Buffy, but Spike is a demon with demon needs and urges that fight to be met, I think Spike is having a huge fight with himself in this season but we just don´t see it, because we are focusing on Buffy.

Anonymous

Spike tries to help Buffy in these two episodes; Double Meet Palace and Dead Things but in doing so he is messing with her inner growth. In DMP he wants her to stop working because she don´ ´t feel happy, but if she does this she would stop being economically independent and self-sufficient. And in DT he wants her to stop having responsibility for what she (think) is done, again stopping her inner growth. I think in these situations Spike really wants to help her but his wairing is wrong, he is following his vampire self-serving logic and can´t understand why Buffy is struggling with these things. Another problem with the Spuffy relationship.

Bisibia
>>16286080

Tis true. Whether he realizes it or not, both of his solutions to her problems rely on him being there to handle it for her, as well. She wants to be independent, and he's looking to have her depend on him... and I don't even think he's doing it on purpose, but it's still what he's pushing.

Anonymous
>>16286080

True, I think that was the dynamic he has with Drusilla (she being crazy, must be a very depending partner) but with Buffy is a completely different story.

Anonymous
>>16270768

I'm confused, so you are saying the characters are out of character?

Anonymous
>>16274644

But what does it mean that he is a demon? Is the demon the dominant personality with only the imprint of the human man left behind or has the essence of William merged and become corrupted by the demon, making a new personality that is neither fully William or demon? I think his inconsistancy could be resolved if we figured out what vampire actually are. When we see Angel/Angelus it sounds like the human and the monster are two entirely different beings... And yet we have Spike... I like to think that those moments where Spike is behaving horribly towards Buffy is when he is simply excited and certain that now Buffy is a demon, like him. And if she only accepted that, she could step into the shadows with him and he wouldn't have to strain himself towards the light, like he has been so far.

Anonymous
>>16286080

With the DoubleMeat Palace I agree he was stopping an important process/ independence (though I don't think it was meant to be manipulative). However with DT, I think he actually did Buffy a favor for her personal growth on two counts (though I'm sure he wanted to keep Buffy from leaving) : One== He is forcing her again to try to see a different moral perspective/argument. (There are in fact many moral systems and NONE of them have been proven right/wrong.) Seeing good and evil as a scale that must be balanced may not always be the right way to go about this, but Buffy's absolute white/black morality is not always the right perspective to have about the tragedies about her job. Though she is the slayer and she can't be caught up in the shades of gray because it would interfere with her work, that doesn't mean those shades of gray don't exist. And while the battle between good and evil may require black and white in real life, ignoring the squares hurts you too. Two== He gave her enough time to stop eventually stop her from turning herself in to the police, an action that would have been morally dishonest. Had she turned herself in and gone to jail, that would have been way she could have 'escaped life' and the pain of being brought back. That I think would have been her primary purpose. In jail she could have avoided her life and responsibilities, like slaying. She would have left Sunnydale and the world without a slayer. She would leave Dawn without a caretaker/guardian/breadwinner. She would have left her friend who was struggling with addiction behind to struggle alone. Would that truly have been the right thing to do? Or would it just be a way to escape and make her guilt for Katrina go away?

Richard Lucas
>>16274644

Angel and Angelus are separated by the wall that is his soul. Spike has no soul. Someone with a soul has choice, to be good or evil. As Warren has a soul but chooses to be evil, or at least makes an evil choice. Those without souls such as vampires (or the boy in Angel) can’t make a choice and are inherently evil. That is why this is so hard for Spike, he’s fighting his inherent nature every step of the way. Props to him.

Richard Lucas

ASR, this was a painful and controversial episode to watch. In a way, this show was an early template for Game of Thrones. There are a 1,000 ways to look at this and future episodes. Don’t be afraid to laugh, when a line is funny, to cry when an episode drags it out of you, to cheer when you want to! That could be the motto of the entire Whedon-verse. It’s not always easy, but it’s always worth it. I never got the feels from a show like Charmed that I got from Buffy and Angel (no disrespect to Charmed intended.)

Anonymous
>>16286080

HelloPatreon you mention a very important important element that is the Black and white morality that Buffy has here, she has problems understanding and accepting her darkness since Buffy v Dracula and is part of her self hatred and the violence she projects on Spike. She needs to integrate her shadow (Jungian style) for her development process. Is funny how Cordelia is "Demonize me like, whatever" and Buffy is so traumatized but the idea of being a demon. Saying that in DT Spike dispose the body, without her knowing or having any choice on it, it may be other options like the Council involvement but Spike went straight to avoidance and making decisions for her. The timing thing is a plot convenience and out of control for the characters. I think Spike has the best intentions here and really wanted to help Buffy but his vampiric way of thinking clash with Buffy development.

Anonymous
>>16286080

Respectfully, I disagree that involving the Council with Katrina's murder would have been a better moral choice for Buffy. Either disposing the body or burying the murder in paperwork would effectively be making the same choice of tidying away a murder. I will agree that Spike's vampiric way of thinking clashes with Buffy's "slayeric" way of thinking, but not that it hindered Buffy's development.

Ryan Wilson
>>16295630

It wasn't just a template for Game of Thrones but many other shows to come after it. Buffy created new ways to do television and broke down several walls.

Andrew Pulrang

Once again, Joss and the Buffy writers are onto something in their portrayal of various kinds of manipulation and non-consensual control and sex ... but the writers themselves don't seem to fully realize the weight of the topic. Even when Andrew and Jonathan react in shock and horror when Katrina connects the dots for them and says it's rape, their horror is played more as naivety than actual guilt. They're shocked because they are too immature and stupid to have realized for themselves, not because they are actually realizing how evil they have been. When first broadcast, these episodes were probably just slightly ahead of their time on the subject of sex and consent, but at this point they are well behind.

Anonymous

The Buffyverse: fucking up eyeliner since 1997.

Jarrod Wild
>>16333499

This aired in 2002, and was way ahead of its time then. The concepts of consent, assault, and rape have evolved dramatically since that time. The fact that they actually finally called a spade a spade and killed the "funny mind control" trope by reframing it as rape was a huge deal and caught a lot of people off guard back then, myself included. The issue I have which is a little nitpicky given the age of the show is that they should have retroactively considered Willow's prior actions against Tara and the rest as assault if not rape (certainly rape in Tara's case since they most definitely had sex after Willow cast the memory spell the first time), or as another example the botched spell that Xander and Amy cast back in season 2 which affected every girl/woman in Sunnydale *except* Cordelia (which I would consider involuntary assault on Xander's part *but* attempted voluntary assault on Cordy, since she was his intended target).

Ryan Wilson
>>16333499

Wild: Thinking about your theory of your willow and tara comment, to clearity by that you mean is if Willow didn't do that forgetting spell, them having sex in Once More With Feeling would have never happened because Tara would have still been pissed at her. That is a very interesting way of looking at it.

Jarrod Wild
>>16333499

Yeah that was the idea. Tara couldn't give proper consent because her mind was wiped of their very recent fight. As she sang later when she found out, it clearly disturbed the hell out of her.

Heather Hollenbeck

This is why I could never get behind Spuffy. I loved Spike as a character, but his relationship with Buffy was both physically and psychologically abusive. Not just on Spike's end, but Buffy's as well. The entire situation was toxic.