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Radio War Nerd EP #355 — Ottoman Empire's End (Part 1), feat. Ryan Gingeras (Patreon)

Published:
2022-11-30 02:41:00
Imported:
2023-06

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Content

Guest: Ryan Gingeras, historian & professor 

We've been wanting to dive into Turkish history for awhile now, since so many stories we cover lead back to the Ottomans or Turkey. Historian Ryan Gingeras walks us through the brutal, humiliating & violent last years of the Ottoman Empire. In part 1, we begin in 1908 with the rise of the Committee for Union & Progress (CUP), otherwise known as the Young Turks, through the humiliations of the Italo-Turkic War and Balkan Wars, and end on the eve of World War One.

Maps:

*Ottoman Empire, 1905

*Rumeli (Ottoman Balkans) pre-Balkan Wars

*Balkan map after Balkan Wars, 1913

*Books & articles by Ryan Gingeras cited:

-Fall of the Sultanate: The Great War and the End of the Ottoman Empire 1908–1922 

-The Last Days of the Ottoman Empire 

-"The History That Happened: Setting the Record Straight on the Armenian Genocide" by Ryan Gingeras, War on the Rocks, Dec 4 2019


*Relevant RWN Episodes:

-The Battle of Lepanto (EP #111)
-Italo-Turkish War of 1911-12, with Annibale (EP #257)
-Turkey in WWI (EP #155)
-Turkish Invasion of Cyprus, Pt 1 (EP #337)

Total time: 1:33:53

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

Files

Comments

Anonymous

Hell yeah, dude

Nixper

Let’s go!!!!!

Anonymous

This is great

Anonymous

Oh fuck yes

woof dog

thank you

Logan Ausherman

Dude sounds like bizarro Jordan Peterson

A Guy

War Nerd tonight let's gooo

Greg

Love chapo grateful for their work, but compared to what RWN provides, yall deserve their number of subscribers. I hope one day everyone at RWN becomes millionaires because you all deserve it. I am forever grateful for your work.

a clash of purple
>>96597272

Well, Chapo Trap House are just kids. Ames and Dolan already did tons of projects before RWN. I don't know how wide an audience the eXile ever got, but the global elite paid attention to their journalism (like that time Ames's article about the Ambani brothers was used to sparked massive riots in India), and Putin did ultimately shut them down. Not sure what Ames and Dolan's financial situations are like, but they're already way more accomplished and notorious than the Chapo boys, for whatever that's worth. Like, Chapo just makes fun of wretched journalists, academics, and op-ed writers. Ames (or his associates) threw horse sperm pies into their faces.

Cindy Carrot

Looking forward v much to this series

Jason Thompson

I have a dumb question about the Ottoman Empire’s dissolution. Were (/are?) there any major population centers of Turks in the far flung reaches of the Empire when it politically dissolved? Or were there just small groups of administrators who ran back to Turkey? (Or perhaps, if as Gingeras says it wasn’t so much a racialized nationalism then, the imperial administrators were locals?) I guess it wasn’t a settler kind of situation, but was there much Turkish intermingling or Turkish ‘colonies’ or (less loaded word) communities in the outer empire?

DumbDumDumbDumb
>>96658853

Welcome to the Turkic worldview, whereby everyone from Slovenians to Xinjiang Muslims are considered Turkish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

William

Just starting but what strikes me is that the years of colonialism, either direct or via trade or financial means, are only ancient history to the colonizers. Guaranteed China remembers the century of humiliation more than any of the Europeans, Americans, and others that took part. There's a strong lesson in there

William
>>96597272

Is this a competition? Could you have just said RWN deserves more subscribers?

Sean
>>96593706

aw be nice. he doesn’t have the essential Kermit the Frog characteristics that make Peterson so goofy

xxx
>>96597272

Honestly I can't stand Chapo, never understood the appeal. Talking to Chapo fans feels like talking to fans of Last Podcast on the Left. Mark is a legitimate journalist with decades of experience. Chapo is basically a bunch of guys who are politically active "comedians" or developed an interest in history. You can't really compare the two. RWN is more free and long form, which is going to get a lot less subscribers by default. With Chapo it's one of those things where it's entertaining and whatever, but if you are an expert in the topic they're covering that episode you realize they overly simplified things. In another universe Chapo and RWN have reversed subscriber counts, but hey we live in this universe 🤷

Logan Ausherman
>>96593706

That's why I said bizarro Jordan Peterson, he's like jp but with out all the bad shit.

a clash of purple
>>96597272

It's not a competition... I first learned about RWN through Chapo (and I learned about Chapo from an interview they did with Richard Wolf, who I learned about from an interview he gave on the Young Turks, etc.). They're all, you know... not friends, not coworkers, but something along those lines. People who all work in the same medium who appreciate each other's work and pass along recommendations for each other. For that matter, I only learned about The Empire Never Ended podcast through RWN, and they're absolutely fantastic and deserve a lot more subscribers.

a clash of purple
>>96658853

As Dolan has said previously, the way that Turkey has tried to overcome its ethnic and sectarian divides is by declaring that everyone in Turkey must be a Turk by definition (or else...). It's not that different from any other nationalist project. Most countries have fun arbitrarily putting labels on various segments of their population and shuffling them around their territory (or exiling them, or exterminating them). Turkey is far from unique in that regard.

a clash of purple
>>96663937

It depends on whether such resentments are politically useful or not. Korea continues to stoke resentments about Japanese atrocities going back centuries because it's a good way to rile people up (and it's also something that the North and South can have in common). Nobody cared about the Jews who died in the Holocaust and the victims only wanted to move on with their lives, until it became a useful talking point for Zionists. Then the loudest and most militant voices shrieking about the Holocaust were people who never lost anyone in the camps, and who immediately aided and abetted the ratlines helping Nazi war criminals flee prosecution, and who have created the world's largest concentration camp for Israel's captive Arab population. But I also don't think that the colonial oppressors have forgotten. Quite the contrary; if you pay attention to racist rhetoric, a lot of it boils down to "We've got to kill them off before they do to us what we did to them." And there's a lot of absurd, illogical personal resentment there, too. Dolan always likes to quote this Irish story, something like: An Englishman and an Irishman are fighting in some battle, and the Englishman skewers the Irishman with his bayonet. As the Irishman dies, he gasps out, "Why do you hate us so much anyway?" and the Englishman leans in and whispers, "We'll never forgive you for what we've done to you." Psychology is weird. I don't know if there's much of a lesson to be learned at all, except that people will exploit whatever's politically useful and ignore the rest.

a clash of purple
>>96593706

"The lowly Kurd lives in a messy room with an unmade bed, and he hangs his head low signaling weakness and self-doubt. Our Ghazi strutted like the proud lobster, head and claws held high, proclaiming his dominance over the seafloor. A true Turk must strive to follow Atatürk's example, and only watch Disney movies that have not been corrupted by post-modernist communists! Ne mutlu Türk'üm diyene!" Sorry, my brain just immediately began to imagine AKP Jordan Peterson.

Jason Thompson
>>96658853

Sure, but even before ‘modern’ nationalism, I assume there must (?) have been some sort of culturally ‘Ottoman’ (if they did not yet identify as Turkish?) group who self-identified, and/or was identified by others, as the privileged elites? Even if the Ottoman Empire was not as racialized as some other Empires, were there not pre-1908 local communities of folks who felt affinity to some kind of Ottoman cultural hegemony? I know what happened to the Ottoman communities in Greece, but weren’t there also Ottoman communities throughout the rest of the Empire, and if so, are they still there or what happened?

Jason Thompson
>>96658853

I’m just working from the assumption that any empire requires moving administrators, merchants and troops from some Central Area into the provinces, but in the case of the Ottoman Empire am I wrong? Was it so much more federated?

Max

Yeah, funny the Sukhoi shootdown was the first episode I listened to. It came up somehow when i googled “the War Nerd” after vague hints on Twitter that such a fabled individual existed. (It did the trick, safe to say.)

Anonymous
>>96658853

There's a decent amount of ethnic Turks in Libya. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Libya) Bulgaria and Macedonia have large Turkish populations as well, as did Greece before the population exchanges. Bosnia and Albania less so I think, but I guess Balkan Muslims would be considered loyal enough.

William
>>96663937

To clarify, I think my statement applies better to the common person of both countries. I think the only thing you said that I agree with is that the colonial oppressors haven't completely forgotten - which is shown as true in many cases with the British and their penchant for destroying records of their atrocities. The lesson here is that often people remember your actions better than you do, especially if it hurt them in some way