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The problems with Beneath the Dragoneye Moons (Patreon)

Published:
2022-05-04 05:13:25
Imported:
2022-05

Content

READ THE CHAPTER FIRST. SPOILERS AHEAD.


When I sat down to write Beneath the Dragoneye Moons, I had some story beats that I really liked, and others that annoyed me.

One story beat that drove me up the wall was that stories were never set close to creation, no. There were always endless “Lost empires” and “hidden dungeons” and “they used to be so much better at magic than we are now.”

Examples of this would be The Stormlight Archives and The Wandering Inn, but nearly every single fantasy series falls victim to this.

I thought that was dumb as a brand-new reader. I wanted to see what it was like “shortly” after creation. Not so shortly that everyone was still in tribes and trying to figure out this “fire” thing, but during the first civilization.

What was it like? Everyone talks about the great old empires, nobody writes what it was like living in the great old empire.

Hence, Remus, the Rome analog.

It was all fun and games at first, but even before I started posting, I realized I’d screwed up a bit.

The reason people didn’t write about the first civilization was a lack of depth.

The main conflict is people vs nature. I didn’t write about Remus’s neighbors, because they didn’t HAVE any. The only conflicts and issues are internal. There are no hidden dungeons that I can pull up to make a new adventure. There are no ancient archives to raid.

Everything is new and shiny!

This lends itself to having a much, MUCH earlier natural “stopping point” to the series than I wanted.

So I plotted. I planned. And I laid down the seeds of my great big “reset” button.

I thought it’d only be, like, 100 chapters tops.

HA.

300+ chapters deep, and here we are!

As I continued working through things as I wrote, I realized I had screwed up a number of other small worldbuilding things. Magics that I didn’t realize my System allowed, but that could and should exist.

Like shapeshifting. [Form of the Dinosaur] should totally be a known skill, but we’ve seen nobody use it. Potions. Alchemies, tens of thousands of different things.

Well, I have an excuse. Instead of “Oh hey we rediscovered the lost magic” AKA the usual “whoops! Fixed that!” that many authors use (there’s no shame in it!), I’m going more with “It wasn’t well fleshed out and developed yet”.

This has also given me the time to properly sort out countries. Cities. Cultures, races, and so many, many more things that give a world its rich feel. Well established organizations, relics and treasures, religion and more!

I’m also fairly restricted right now. I can’t do glass, or things with glass in Remus. I need to stick to pure Classical Rome things. There aren’t a ton of other cultures out there.

I’m not super interested in writing endless “Elaine, the only human, deep in elf/dwarf/orc/ogre/centaur territory, occasionally at war with shimagu/others.” I’m not sure you’d all be that interested in reading it.

Another thing is the “global level” so to speak. There’s only so many people living, and there’s only so high levels can get. I have an end in mind, but with the current worldbuilding it’d take some massively absurd timeskips to get there.

“Then Elaine lived happily for the next 900 years to get another 300 levels” isn’t exactly gripping storytelling.

I needed a shakeup. So I prepared.

As I said, as early as chapter 5ish I started to lay down the groundwork for one day fixing, revamping, and overhauling everything.

I believe it worked… mostly. I’ll occasionally think of something interesting and go “well shit that changes things”, but I’ve had almost two years of thinking at this point. Things are a lot stronger than they used to be.

Hence, the Great Shakeup.

Iona was the early introduction to the shakeup and the new world. I have essays to write about her, but those are for another day.

I worked with a number of early beta readers to try and figure out the best “shape” this will take, and broadly speaking, we found an excellent way to make it happen. Many of you have guessed at some of it, but I don’t think anyone guessed the full thing.

I’ll let you find out soon what it is ;)

Thank you all for understanding!

On a different, medium-low spoiler note, I’ve had some people approach me concerned that Iona’s time is “bog standard medieval fantasy with the serial numbers filed off.”

This is a somewhat valid concern, because Rolland IS bog standard medieval fantasy with the serial numbers filed off! However, not all of my countries are. Here’s a breakdown for those concerned:

Nime: Straddles the line. I’m trying to make it super-authoritarian, but I might get stuck in some ruts. The endless waterfall from nowhere does give it some flavor, along with the forbidden four classers. Bleak. Like 50% serial numbers filed off (SNFO)

Lithos: Nordic-inspired, with troll Jarls. Like 40% SNFO, but I hope my twists are enough

Jurcor: 0% SNFO. Lots of lawful devils with… ok, it’s hard to explain in a short sentence or three, and I’ve got a lot of these to run through.

Draakveld: 0% SNFO. Windmills, demons, WORKING communism, and tulips.

Xerius: 0% SNFO. Persian Saurians… but they’re all dinosaur-themed saurians.

Exterreri Empire: 10% SNFO. Roman-inspired vampires that - wait, hang on!

Ankhelt - 50% SNFO. Ancient Egypt fairly standard fantasy fare with beastkin. Maybe more like 70% SNFO.

Tympestshard Council: 90% SNFO. High elves, cities of crystal, etc etc.

Sicalatian Confederacy: 10% SNFO. Italian City-states, which are really more city-TREES filled with clever gnomes.

Han Empire: 20-80% SNFO, depending on how you see things. Warring States period, with Dullahans and their lava forges doing the warring.

Geum Kingdom: 20% SNFO. Ancient Korea scholar-warrior minotaurs.

Tuvan Tribes: 75% SNFO. Tribal yetis.

The Great Tang: 100% SNFO. Cultivators galore, except the Tang Sect is filled with reasonable people so they survive.

…. Mostly because I want to poke fun at cultivation novel tropes when I want to.

Nippon-Koku: 75% SNFO. Japan, with Kitsune Daimyo. Then again, I’m not sure how often I actually see it…

Vollomond: 25% SNFO. Gothic Germany run by werewolves. Still unsure on some details.

Cartref Clyd: 25% SNFO. Think the Shire, then replace hobbits with fauns that are more than happy to hire mercenaries to do their dirty work.

Tonaltintli: 0% SNFO. Aztec/Mayan blended Kobolds.

The Silver Horde: 0% SNFO. Mongolian-inspired centaurs, lots of orchards. (The golden horde, except silver for reasons to be revealed)

The Golden Courts: 100% SNFO. Classic wood elves. Do I need to say more?

Khazad: 25% SNFO. We saw these dwarves before!

Rolland: 100% SNFO. English-French late dark/early medieval castles and knights, court wizards, etc. You know how this all works.

Urwa: 50% SNFO. 1001 Arabian Nights, elf-style.

Modu: 10% SNFO. Frost giants in their castles of ice and snow…with a minor mix of mad scientists.

Kalea: 0% SNFO. A polynesian-inspired coalition of various intelligent aquatics. They fight the [REDACTED]

Ekada Ruh: 0% SNFO. A sort of “second country” of changelings trying to live their life, integrated into whatever society they’ve found themselves in. They’re all kin, and recognize it as such.

Aerie Heights: 0% SNFO. Jagged floating mountains are perfect for harpies.

Suen: 50% SNFO. Think any trader-city in books, and that’s Suen! Country of coin.

Dairalt Republic: 25% SNFO. The gnolls we saw before! Nothing tribal can truly get to 0%, but i think “the worlds largest pet store anchors it” gives it some flavor.

Phantasym Mageocracy: 75% SNFO. A country of wizard towers with supporting villages. Yeah, you can see it in your mind’s eye now!

Bhutai Provinces: 0% SNFO. Think giants that decided to live like a tibetan monk does.

Omospondia Confederacy: ??? SNFO. Awkwardly. I still need a good culture for them. It’s a monster mash. The ogres, orcs, gorgons, etc. who are generally reviled elsewhere have all grouped together here.

Penujuman Necrocracy: 0% SNFO Siam-inspired liches raise thousands of undead to labor for them, all while the official state religion is “Pray for more liches to be born.”

Gwyllt: 0% SNFO. BEES OH GOD SO MANY BEEEEEEES AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Ralakar: 0% SNFO. India-inspired culture filled with exceptionally horny Dragonlings. Well, they claim to be related to dragons, but…

Comments

Aurora

Okay so I'm going into the past here looking for the discord link, but do you have any idea how worried I was Elaine was gonna get time crunched in a stasis field in Lun'Kat's lair and she'd have no one to come home to. Then she got home and I was happy, and then I looked at how much was left in the book. and she got time crunched anyways, but by the Fae. I was pissed, because I thought she escaped her fate. I do really like where the story went afterwards though

Keith Rice

So, um, small note. Rome had plenty of neighbors. The famous Punic Wars were fought between Rome and Carthage. The Parthian Empire (later Sasanian empire) contained Rome's eastern expansion, while to the south they exchanged territory with the Garamantian empire (in present-day Africa). The Saxon tribes proved an enemy Rome could never overcome, and to the north the Caledonians constantly pushed Rome's borders. That is on top of the empires in present day India, China, Japan, South Africa, North America, and South America that Rome never had contact with. Rome is closer to the present time than it was to the dawn of civilization. The Sumerian Empire in 3000 BCE was the earliest known civilization, while the earliest surviving civilization is the Chinese empire. Which is to say Rome is old, but it was certainly not free of neighbors. The only people who thought it was the dawn of civilization were a bunch of monks in the middle ages, who to be quite frank did not know that much. This view you're presenting is very, VERY eurocentric in a bad way.

Anonymous
>>83236450

Selkie is not saying that Rome had no neighbors. They are saying that Remus has no neighbors.

Keith Rice
>>83236450

Right. And there's literally no relationship between the two. /facepalm

Fusssel

Gothic Germany, well, mid 1200 to 1500. Will you create it as a political entity like the Holy Roman Empire, which was more or less Germany between Charlemagne and Napoleon? If yes, yay to complicated border gore :D

Anonymous

i found the reason for isolation of remus quite good. you have a bunch of deterants to go there, low exp, ants, a see monster, maybe some ilusionist that setup some ilusions to make people avoid going there. only hole might be night not knowing( if he told nobody for protection or some promise.. ) talking gods not spilling. outside wandering imorals visting might simply not have cared about the remote location

Andrew Puterbaugh

"Exterreri Empire" Eh? Sounds pretty byzantine... Hyuck

Jo

I just want to preface my thoughts below with the understanding that I like your story. But since you thought it necessary/relevant to describe your storytelling/worldbuilding I give my thoughts on those. I didn't think you would outright mention these issues with your story but here are my 2 cents: It was problematic from the very beginning that Remus was the only human realm. Given the danger of traveling, the amount of cultural diversion between cities should have been greater imho. I don't really understand why you feel the need to be constrained by Roman culture for the culture of Remus. While the Roman culture is clearly the inspiration, there are always quite a few differences so long as you as the author aren't an expert in Roman culture. Let's take glass for example: You say you can't use it and I am sitting here at my desk looking confused at my jug made out of glass that's a replica of a Roman one.......(granted glass wasn't a Roman invention but then again neither was writing and it would be a pretty silly story without ;-) ) Wanting to set your story in the first advanced civilisation is another aspect. I think that you forgot that with a few thousand years to draw on for history that there easily could, I would even say should, be some part of history (ruins/tribes that were isolated, resources i.d.k. what else but that's of the top of my head) that is forgotten to be rediscovered. It doesn't have to be from a "greater" past, just from a different one. After all being the most advanced civ doesn't mean there weren't different ones before it. Remember: 5000 years, or if you want to ignore the first 1000 make it 4000, is plenty of time to have a lot that has happend being forgotten or do you know all the nuances of what the world was like so long ago? Even 2000 years ago is quite the task in many respects even though we know most things that happened back then concerning europe and the mediteran civilisations I don't think it would shock anyone if there was something for the people back than very important that we simply don't know. And the vampires can't be everywhere to guard against that. Just to get back to the Romans: before the Romans became Romans they were part of smaller tribal cultural structures, just like pretty much every other early civilisation. That doesn't mean that there weren't cultural achievments (cities/farming/clothes/art ety.....) nor that there aren't differences between different tribal structures. It mostly means fewer luxury goods, almost no burocracy and small/flater powerstructures. After all, these are necessary if you want to have an empire to be able to exercise control over it. To be frank I never expected anything ground-breaking from this story but thought it quite nice to have a different setting. For your next one I would propose to spent a little bit more on worldbuilding. The first thing that comes to mind is that while it may be a little funny to immediatly recognise the intended cultural reference from the given names of the Kingdoms I think you went a little too far here. Mainly because cultural lines and borders of countrys/nations/empires/realms etc. are seldom identical. I would even say that doesn't exist. I also don't think it all that good especially since nobody can ever fullfil all the expectations that the usage of those names provokes and your own contributions to these cultures either goes unrecognised or misattributed to you misunderstanding the referenced culture. You may have noticed that I'm not the biggest fan of the Warhammer (Fantasy) way of worldbuilding

Anonymous

I just wanted to say that there is no reason to be defensive about the fact that Roland or other countries are modeled upon actual civilizations. Your letter seems as if you have gotten flak from someone about using standard western tropes for some of your world building. It is a trope because it is successful and it works for most audiences. You have your own quirks built in, don't let the snobs bully you.

Anonymous

As a fan of and DM in the Eberron setting, I'm going to recommend looking up the Droaamish culture and the faith of the Dark Six for the Omospondia Confederacy

David Brims
>>83236450

It's important to make a distinction between the model (in this case Rome) and the author's concept (in this case Remus). Despite the similarities there will be distinct differences. Quite aside from magic and the system, Rome had many antecedent and peer civilisations, in particular Etruscan, Greek and Persian civilisations contributed to Rome. Remus was written as something that developed gradually in isolation afforded by the low XP zone. All neighbors are inhuman civilisations and Selkie decided a more nuanced world could not be achieved without significant rewrites or a timeskip. This is a problem specific to the Remus setting that does not reflect the Roman model.

Fusssel
>>83244628

Slept a bit and now I could think of the government type for vollomond. Since they are werewolves, let them organize in small packs with one alpha at the top. Of those alphas some are allowed to vote for one alpha to represent them as a whole.

John Anastacio

I don't understand at all so I guess I'll just wait for the next chapter.

Anonymous

Please make more large scale world anomalies, like the dead zone! The way they interact with cultures give the civilizations so much flair!

Anonymous

Omospondia Confederacy, just a silly idea but could be a worthwhile one. Make it into a bureaucracy. On paper it may seem silly (pardon the pun), but on deeper level it does seem to workout. There need to be rules for any large group of individuals that are not tribes warring amongst themselves. What better way to flesh out and subvert the audience than making Orc’s and Goblins run a more “civilised” country than those who hate them.